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Torso Rotation Strength Training for Scoliosis

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  • Originally posted by mamamax View Post
    Well referenced posting/sharing from another forum (with author permission) regarding the topic:

    I've studied the topic of spontaneous resolution quite thoroughly. In one of the earliest papers I wrote, one of the criticisms laid forth was that most cases of scoliosis resolve spontaneously, without the need for treatment. I have not seen this clinically,
    What is the range and frequency of curves this guy has seen? I bet he rarely sees anything less than 30*. That will completely skew his data and observations. Thus it is irrelevant that he hasn't seen this. What he has seen is Clear failing to resolve any curve.

    and there are many, many research papers which provide evidence against it.
    And yet he didn't even list one. I challenge him to list "many, many" articles in the peer reviewed literature. Maybe he is talking about chiro journals which of course is not relevant to the discussion.

    If the reader of this post is familiar with Martha Hawes, PhD, you may recall her discussion, Progression and Natural History, in Chapter 1, under Subheading G, in her book Scoliosis and the Human Spine: "Virtually all cases of juvenile IS are progressive (Robinson and McMaster 1996)."
    At any point, will this guy be addressing the issue at hand... a resolution of an 11* AIS curve? Is it so hard to stay on point? Why?

    (snip more irrelevant discussion)

    Even during the growth spurt, the chance of spontaneous regression remains very small: "Spontaneous regress of the curve almost never occurs in adolescent idiopathic scoliosis." (Sevastik JA: Idiopathic Scoliosis: What is it? Research into Spinal Deformities I, J.A. Sevastik and K.M. Diab (Eds.), IOS Press 1997, p. 37-40.)
    And yet Soucacos, et al., (1998) documented a very high percentage. Soucacos, et al., (1998) does post date this article but not what Woggon wrote.

    There has never been an instance published in the literature where a moderate to severe scoliosis (above 30 degrees) spontaneously regressed post-skeletal maturity;
    Irrelevant again. The subject is a complete regression of an 11* curve in AIS.

    I hope this information is helpful in combatting (sic) the myth that scoliosis is a benign condition, undeserving of treatment, with little effect upon a person's physical & psychological status.
    It is completely unhelpful as it is mostly irrelevant. Further, you are arguing strawman arguments; Nobody is claiming it is benign (universally) with little effect on a person's well being.

    I wish this guy would address the conclusion in Soucacos that... "In conclusion, the findings of the present study strongly suggest that only a small percentage of scoliotic curves will undergo progression."

    In my personal opinion, this point of view is often put forward by individuals who have no real answers to give to the problem of scoliosis,
    Including Clear, of course.

    so they insist that efforts to treat it are without value,
    Charging people to try anything that pops into the head of Clear folks is without value in my opinion. Chiros have no relevant training to be treating scoliosis.

    when in truth - as anyone knows who has scoliosis or has a friend or family member who does - research into early detection & treatment is desperately needed to prevent the significant physical & psychosocial burdens that oft accompany this condition in his later stages.
    Does Clear admit they are only researching scoliosis "treatments" and don't presently have any proven treatment either for early or late stage scoliosis??
    Last edited by Pooka1; 06-02-2010, 02:10 PM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

    Comment


    • Originally posted by mamamax View Post
      [COLOR="Navy"]
      I've studied the topic of spontaneous resolution quite thoroughly. In one of the earliest papers I wrote,
      Dr. Josh Woggon
      Director of Research
      CLEAR Institute
      jwoggon@clear-institute.org
      It was hard for me to get past the first sentence:
      Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
      Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

      Comment


      • Originally posted by LindaRacine View Post
        It was hard for me to get past the first sentence:
        That guy is spitting in the wind and fooling the poor bunnies.
        Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

        No island of sanity.

        Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
        Answer: Medicine


        "We are all African."

        Comment


        • Maybe, maybe he is referring to the fact [word?] that so many kids start off with small curves which might technically qualify for a dx of mild scoliosis but then they grow up, and don't complain again - to the best of his knowledge.

          After all, how many initial scoli dxes turn really nasty? A minority, I believe. No?

          (Love all the great metaphors! )
          Not all diagnosed (still having tests and consults) but so far:
          Ehler-Danlos (hyper-mobility) syndrome, 69 - somehow,
          main curve L Cobb 60, compensating T curve ~ 30
          Flat back, marked lumbar kyphosis (grade?) Spondilolisthesis - everyone gives this a different grade too. Cervical stenosis op'd 3-07, minimally invasive

          Comment


          • Update x-rays

            The mother of the girl whose scoliosis reconciled sent me 2 additional sets of x-rays and information for a timeline.

            Here is a link
            Pic: Scoliosis reconciles in adolescent female

            Of particular interest to me is the fact that her lumbar reconciled after a little more than 3 months.
            Last edited by Dingo; 06-09-2010, 05:17 PM.

            Comment


            • MedX Torso Rotation in action

              YouTube: MedX Torso Rotation

              This machine does a great job of eliminating contribution from other muscles when trying to exercise the Obliques. The lower back is involved as well, but not to the same extent as the obliques. This is (as far as I know) the only MedX Torso Rotation machine in Sweden, and I am proud to be the reason it´s here.

              Comment


              • another followup

                I just got an e-mail from a mother who recently began doing torso rotation strength training with her daughter.

                I just wanted to tell you that we started working on the machines about 2 months ago and at my daughters last xray her curve dropped from 13/14 degrees to 9 degrees.

                I don't know if you remember our story. She started at 20 degrees 1 1/2 years ago. Exactly one year ago we got her into the spinecor brace. When fitted she went down to 14. Then 6 months ago at her appt. she measured at 13 degrees. At our appt. this last monday she measured at 9.

                So, she's still wearing the spinecor (we go to montreal) and she wears it when she does the machines. We figured it helps her stay in the best starting position for the exercises. And she does them 2-3 times a week.

                Our YMCA has cybex equipment and per Roger's recommendation, she does the Torso Rotation machine, the back extension machine and the seated cable row. We've added the leg press just for fun because she's a runner. She does 2 sets of 15 on each machine. Pretty simple.

                Comment


                • Hi Dingo,

                  I think you need to be very careful with inferring any kind of causation of the curve reduction in your last post with these torso rotation exercises. The child is wearing a Spinecor brace and goes to Montreal where they usually utilize in-brace x-rays.

                  I myself have a hard time understanding a brace that is expected to reduce the in-brace curvature over a long period of time like the inventors expect the Spinecor to. The in-brace correction that happens very rapidly in other braces takes a very long time in the Spinecor and continues to occur, and what is the relationship to the out of brace curve size?

                  Something to take into consideration.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Dingo View Post
                    The exercise itself "looks" easy, but by the expression on that guy's face, I tell he was in some intense pain.
                    Be happy!
                    We don't know what tomorrow brings,
                    but we are alive today!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by rohrer01 View Post
                      The exercise itself "looks" easy, but by the expression on that guy's face, I tell he was in some intense pain.
                      He's doing 60lbs resistance. I don't think the scoliosis regime requires anything like that.

                      Comment


                      • causation

                        Balletmom

                        I think you need to be very careful with inferring any kind of causation of the curve reduction in your last post with these torso rotation exercises. The child is wearing a Spinecor brace and goes to Montreal where they usually utilize in-brace x-rays.
                        It's impossible for me to know what caused the improvement or if there was any improvement at all. But I'm going to post all the data points.

                        Comment


                        • Data Points

                          Originally posted by Dingo View Post
                          Balletmom



                          It's impossible for me to know what caused the improvement or if there was any improvement at all. But I'm going to post all the data points.
                          Hope you will keep them coming Dingo - they are important ;-) and thanks!

                          Comment


                          • The degree of curvature mentioned was minimal anyway. Keep em coming but don't let people with curves a lot larger like mine was become confused.

                            Lorraine.
                            Operated on in 1966, harrington rods inserted from T4 to L3, here in Australia. Fusion of the said vertebrae as well. Problems for the last 14 years with pain.
                            Something I feel deeply,"Life is like money,you can spend it anyway you wish, but can only spend it once.

                            Comment


                            • Trs

                              Mamamax

                              Will do! I believe that within 10 years TRS will be a mainstream therapy for Scoliosis. I'm doing my part to shave that down to 8 or 9 years.

                              TRS shows how Scoliosis can be treated and it provides compelling evidence of the cause. The muscles of the back or some related system are applying a destructive force to the spine as it grows.

                              Scoliosis is not primarily a bone disorder.
                              If Scoliosis was triggered by a bone disorder our children would have a high rate of other bone deformities. Any significant problem in the vertebrae are secondary to some other problem.

                              Here is an x-ray of a spine with Scoliosis.
                              X-ray spine

                              Here is an x-ray of a healthy foot.
                              X-ray foot

                              The bones of the foot are packed together much tighter than the spine. In addition our feet support more weight and absorb larger shocks than the spine. If Scoliosis was a bone disorder our children would suffer from other bone specific disease processes, especially in places like the feet.

                              I've never read a message from a mom who said that her child's spine had severe Scoliosis and her feet, hands or some other structure were equally deformed. It doesn't come up and I've never seen it mentioned in the literature.
                              Last edited by Dingo; 08-04-2010, 03:11 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Dr. Kiester believes that scoliosis is caused by tight ligaments at the back of the spine. He has stated that he has proven that beyond doubt.

                                Is there any chance that skevimc might comment as to whether these torso rotation exercises might be affecting those ligaments at the back of the spine and acting to stretch them out during the growth process?

                                Thanks!
                                Last edited by Ballet Mom; 08-04-2010, 11:51 AM.

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