Torso Rotation Strength Training for Scoliosis

[Pooka1]

I get your point. But think you're being a tad hyper-critical. This is nowhere near the CLEAR folks. Nobody is claiming their surgery caused their colon cancer. As well, none of the RTS papers suggest they can reduce major curves.

Although the commercial products might be approaching the CLEAR realm of things.

Okay. I'm just saying Clear makes bunny cry...

http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/0...ake-bunny-cry/

[Dingo]

Que?

LindaRacine

That is just so beyond ridiculous. A year worth of exercise to make an 11 degree curve, that had a snowball's chance in hell of progressing, into nothing. Wonder what the cost per degree was.

Would you respond the same way if a child improved her math score by 11 points? What a vicious tone.

In the future you might want to consider limiting your exposure to children.

[mamandcrm]

That's interesting. Very nice straight spine there on the right. The x-ray on the left looks like more than an 11* curve. My kid has an 11* curve now and her spine definitely is straighter than that on her x-ray. Maybe the mechanics of measurement are more complex than just what you see on the x-ray. Or maybe my kid's curve actually is less than 11*...

[Dingo]

cost involved

I think the question of how much money was spent is a good one. But Dingo didn't post how this was paid for. Maybe they billed insurance and it cost $10k or maybe they did it at the local YMCA and they spent a couple of hundred bucks on a gym membership. Without knowing that information it's difficult to say what was wasted money

The mother of the 12 year old purchased a used Cybex rotation machine off the internet for a few hundred bucks. When her daughter has finished growing she can sell it back for a few hundred bucks.

I'll leave it to the accountants on this forum to determine whether that will bankrupt the United States.

[hdugger]

Overall, it's a little weird at how personal the comments were towards the family from the x-rays. I'm hopeful that this was not the intent and that it was a symptom of the ongoing argument between several members. A girl had an 11° curve. And now she doesn't. Good news! All critiques after that appear to be based on assumptions (unless I missed something).

It's the non-scientific side of the "it's all about science" argument yes, one would think that "good news" would be a more appropriate response.

Dingo got an interesting question about this study over at the scoliosis support forum. One of the participants wondered if the torso rotation would have any effect on the wedging seen in Scheuermann's kyphosis.

[Pooka1]

Dingo got an interesting question about this study over at the scoliosis support forum. One of the participants wondered if the torso rotation would have any effect on the wedging seen in Scheuermann's kyphosis.

And just how the heck is Dingo supposed to address it may I ask?

And this isn't a study.

[Dingo]

at least she was honest

hdugger

yes, one would think that "good news" would be a more appropriate response.

LindaRacine may not have given an appropriate response to news that a child had a complete resolution of her Scoliosis, but she did give an honest response.

That is just so beyond ridiculous. A year worth of exercise to make an 11 degree curve, that had a snowball's chance in hell of progressing, into nothing. Wonder what the cost per degree was.

Truth be told I think she was holding back.

[hdugger]

And just how the heck is Dingo supposed to address it may I ask?

Actually, the question was for Kevin, but I'd imagine anyone else could approach the question the way we usually do with such matters - look at the research and try to muddle through. Our collective lack of real training in the field has never held us back before!

[Pooka1]

Actually, the question was for Kevin, but I'd imagine anyone else could approach the question the way we usually do with such matters - look at the research and try to muddle through. Our collective lack of real training in the field has never held us back before!

Well, you have my vote for most elliptical, if not obscurantist, answer lately.

The question was posed to Dingo. Can I just ask if it gives you pause to see lay folks asking other lay folks questions that require specific expertise and training that the lay folks don't have? Are you completely sanguine about that? If cut do you not bleed???

Well, at least your response wouldn't make bunny cry but it might drive a hamster to drink (which doesn't take much).

[hdugger]

The question was posed to Dingo. Can I just ask if it gives you pause to see lay folks asking other lay folks questions that require specific expertise and training that the lay folks don't have? Are you completely sanguine about that? If cut do you not bleed???

Oh, you mean the question over at Scoliosis support - not my question. Yes, that was for Dingo.

We get questions like that here all the time, and we're always happy to answer. "Should I get surgery for my 27 degree curve?," "Is it normal to tilt to the side after surgery?" and so on and so on. It's the nature of a non-technical support forum that we untrained end up answering all manner of questions for which we haven't a lick of professional qualification.

If that's *always* an issue, then we need to shut down the forum, because, frankly, the blind-leading-the-blind accounts for about 80% of all exchanges here. OTOH, if that is *only* an issue when the question is addressed to Dingo . . . well, it would certainly seem like something other then pure "it's all for science" is going on.

[hdugger]

BTW, before I thought of asking Kevin, I was going to field the question over at Scoliosis Support myself, with absolutely *no* research to back me up whatsoever

Willfully uninformed, highly opinionated, and loving it!

[Pooka1]

Oh, you mean the question over at Scoliosis support - not my question. Yes, that was for Dingo.

We get questions like that here all the time, and we're always happy to answer. "Should I get surgery for my 27 degree curve?," "Is it normal to tilt to the side after surgery?" and so on and so on. It's the nature of a non-technical support forum that we untrained end up answering all manner of questions for which we haven't a lick of professional qualification.

If that's *always* an issue, then we need to shut down the forum, because, frankly, the blind-leading-the-blind accounts for about 80% of all exchanges here. OTOH, if that is *only* an issue when the question is addressed to Dingo . . . well, it would certainly seem like something other then pure "it's all for science" is going on.

The issue is lay, untrained people coming on here claiming x, y, and z as AGAINST the evidence in hand and accusing actual researchers (like Ogilvie) of doing "silly" science on no rational basis whatsoever.

Ninety-nine point nine nine nine nine nine percent of the players here ADMIT they don't know, make it abundantly clear when they are speculating/guessing, and don't pretend to know more than researchers in the field.

One player does NOT do that.

Do you disagree? Can you?

[Pooka1]

Honest, informed

Here is my suggestion for an intellectually honest post on this subject that conveys known facts and limitations of TRS and has little to no chance of misleading the bunnies...

An 11 year old girl (now 12) began torso rotation strength training approximately 1 year ago. Late today her mother e-mailed me the before and after x-rays. I put them together into one picture. This one is worth 1,000 words.

Before and after x-rays (1 year)

Although she did TRS, many small curves like this regress spontaneously and completely on their own. While TRS may have contributed in whole or in part to this great result, it is impossible to say one way or the other at this point. It's good news for the family and hopefully they will not be making any unsupported claims to others based on their results.

Had something like that been posted rather than what was, there would have been zero pushback. ZERO.

[hdugger]

One player does NOT do that.

Do you disagree? Can you?

I'm positive that sustained exercise can decrease/hold curves, and am only searching for the correct combination that will work in a larger percentage of cases. I know that belief lies in opposition to some research, but I'm (pretty openly) dismissive of much of that research.

I've spent a fair amount of time online, so I know how to hem and haw, but that doesn't change the fact that I have no professional background in the field and hold a fairly strong opinion.

Likewise, I imagine that the strong feelings you have against bracing (even though the research is inconclusive) has swayed some people away from using braces, even against their doctor's advice.

The internet is full of strong opinions, and all of them have consequence. Reader beware, I suppose.

[Pooka1]

Likewise, I imagine that the strong feelings you have against bracing (even though the research is inconclusive)

I'm not the one who had to wear the brace. I'm required to seek out the evidence, if it exists, for my kids. Bracing is no benign treatment.

And it would be more accurate to say the evidence is inconclusive AFTER ALL THESES YEARS. A bit of a different lilt that matters.

As for the remaining, I think in your attempt to play devils advocate you have overstepped. Your skepticism in re PT is about a LACK of evidence which you suspect really exists out there. In stark contrast, others here are skeptical about KNOWN FACTS. That's a world of difference and I think you realize it.