Surgery is no cure.

[Pooka1]

To answer your questions/statements: It has occurred to me that if Weiss's statements were grossly inaccurate, that they would not have gone unchallenged or without rebuttal. Furthermore the referenced paper is about documentation .. if one reads it with a keen eye.

No. Quacks are marginalized and ignored. Within biology, there are a few "geniuses" with legit doctorates from accredited schools but are nonetheless creationists. Few legit researchers deal with them in a serious way. Dawkins and Gould specifically and publicly refused to debate them because debates require two sides and it's dopey to debate science versus religion.

[Pooka1]

How rational scientists handle quacks

Here is the page Lehigh University has to have up to avoid anyone thinking they are as nutty as Behe, an Intelligent Design Creationist who is also tenured...

How to handle Behe

They used to have this splash page come up if you tried to get to the Biology page so that it was the FIRST thing you could read before going to the Biology Department. That's how important they thought it was. People who don't think scientifically shouldn't be calling themselves scientists.

And by the way, Behe at least accepts common descent and a few billion year old earth. So there is a limit to his nuttiness.

[concerned dad]

Sharon, Comparing Dr. Weiss to creation scientists is wrong.
Linda, Calling this physician a "quack" is wrong.
Pam, Quoting statements from his technical literature out of context (surgery and cosmesis) is wrong.

M.D. 1986;
Residency in traumatology 1986;
Residency in orthopedic surgery 1987 – 1992.
Orthopaedic surgeon since 1992,

What does he have to say about surgery? In his 2003 paper available in full PDF from the link below he says:
Conclusions: If conservative management does reduce the proportion of children with adolescent idiopathic scoliosis that require surgery, (CD- As he believes he shows in his paper) it can be said to provide a real and meaningful advantage to both the patients and the community. It is contended that conservative methods of treatment should never be ruled out from scoliosis management, because they can and do offer a viable alternative to those patients who cannot or will not opt for surgical treatment. Does anyone have a problem with THAT statement?

Link

Did I piss everyone off yet?

To blow a kiss to mamamax, I believe she is 100% correct. The paper is about documentation (evidence and proof). Part of the issue relates to the fact that English is not his first language.

[concerned dad]

Sharon,
I wonder if this hobby of his changes your opinion.

[Pooka1]

Sharon,
I wonder if this hobby of his changes your opinion.

I hand it to you in finding his credentials and this web page.

I see he is one of a growing number of Europeans who are gloming onto western riding disciplines. It is becoming the rage. Reining and balance seat at least are directly analogous to dressage.

I guess the Germans were getting bored with DOMINATING dressage for decades until recently when The Netherlands dominates.

In re Scroth, I have heard Germans claim it is a very fringe treatment even in that country.

[CHRIS WBS]

Tell us Pam .. are you still threatening legal action against Dr. Joseph O'Brien? http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/member.php?u=114

How dare she threaten legal action against someone who has provided such a valuable service to so many of us. When I was at my wit’s end four years ago, I stumbled on to this site and have always believed that God steered me here to find answers. It provided the answer to my prayer when I asked to be led to the doctor who was right for me and I am forever grateful for having found this site. Thank you Joe and Linda.

[Pooka1]

Exqueeze me but...

Pam, Quoting statements from his technical literature out of context (surgery and cosmesis) is wrong.

We have that ENTIRE article. The context doesn't save that quote. It is not supported by facts.

What does he have to say about surgery? In his 2003 paper available in full PDF from the link below he says:
Conclusions: If conservative management does reduce the proportion of children with adolescent idiopathic scoliosis that require surgery, (CD- As he believes he shows in his paper) it can be said to provide a real and meaningful advantage to both the patients and the community. It is contended that conservative methods of treatment should never be ruled out from scoliosis management, because they can and do offer a viable alternative to those patients who cannot or will not opt for surgical treatment. Does anyone have a problem with THAT statement?

Well I would say that excerpt is about alternative methods, NOT surgery.

I also wonder why he hasn't gathered more data for alternative methods since becoming a surgeon and why his grandmother (K. Schroth) didn't either and why Schroth is still a fringe treatment even in Germany. Why aren't other surgeons convinced by now?

Last, if those are fully trained horses on his web site, he paid a pretty penny, whether he imported them from the States or they are homebreds.

And I find it amusing to think Germans import horses when for decades 99.99999% of the import traffic has been German horses going abroad, often to the US. Germans know how to breed sport horses and have been perfecting it for a long, long time.

[concerned dad]

The term “Medical Indication” is central to the issue surrounding the Weiss quote. When I said "context", I meant in the context of the scientific debate.

Sometimes (most times, I hope) scientific debate is carried out in the technical literature.

But imagine this: An SRS doctor says “You bozo’s over at SOSORT have no good evidence that your conservative treatments work."

The SOSORT doctor says, “oh yeah bud? You can’t prove that surgery works. Put that in your pipe and smoke it”

But, that’s not how it plays out. Thankfully it is a bit more civil.

Dr. Dolan says “the use of bracing relative to observation is supported by “troublingly inconsistent or inconclusive studies of any level.”

And Dr. Weiss responds : In the light of the unknown long-term effects of surgery …… Until such a time that such evidence exists, there can be no medical indication for surgery.

Then, seemingly JUST to piss of Pam, he adds:

The indications for surgery are limited for cosmetic reasons in severe cases.

Acknowledging that there is evidence that rises to the level of proof that cosmesis is improved after scoliosis surgery.

I dunno, that's my take on it anyway. Could be wrong, wouldnt be the first time.

[Pooka1]

The term “Medical Indication” is central to the issue surrounding the Weiss quote. When I said "context", I meant in the context of the scientific debate.

As far as I know, the context is where most of the rest of the surgeons and virtually all insurance companies think the following:

from one of the "anointed" links on the NSF sites...

indications for surgery

Surgical Treatment

Surgery is generally only considered in patients who have continual pain, difficulty breathing, significant disfigurement, or a steadily worsening curve angle.

So cosmesis is one of FOUR indications for surgery.

I suggest in the debate that Weiss is sitting out there at around 6 sigma on the spectrum of surgeon opinion on this issue.

[LindaRacine]

Sharon, Comparing Dr. Weiss to creation scientists is wrong.
Linda, Calling this physician a "quack" is wrong.
Pam, Quoting statements from his technical literature out of context (surgery and cosmesis) is wrong.

M.D. 1986;
Residency in traumatology 1986;
Residency in orthopedic surgery 1987 – 1992.
Orthopaedic surgeon since 1992,

What does he have to say about surgery? In his 2003 paper available in full PDF from the link below he says:
Conclusions: If conservative management does reduce the proportion of children with adolescent idiopathic scoliosis that require surgery, (CD- As he believes he shows in his paper) it can be said to provide a real and meaningful advantage to both the patients and the community. It is contended that conservative methods of treatment should never be ruled out from scoliosis management, because they can and do offer a viable alternative to those patients who cannot or will not opt for surgical treatment. Does anyone have a problem with THAT statement?

Link

Did I piss everyone off yet?

To blow a kiss to mamamax, I believe she is 100% correct. The paper is about documentation (evidence and proof). Part of the issue relates to the fact that English is not his first language.

I totally agree that that statement is true.

And, for the record, I never (at least publicly) called Weiss a quack. I called a statement of his quacky, which I still believe.

--Linda

[LindaRacine]

Tell us Pam .. are you still threatening legal action against Dr. Joseph O'Brien? http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/member.php?u=114

[/COLOR]

Joe has said many times, that he is not a medical professional (nor is he a PhD).

[LindaRacine]

CD...

I know you love the underdog, but occasionally you go around the bend.

If RCTs are the only valid studies, then technically there is no proof that scoliosis surgery is effective. However, there are long-term studies galore, which is a lot more than one can say about any of the alternative studies.

And, so when your kid's curve reaches say 70-80 degrees, I assume you'll allow them to be put in a control group and not have surgery. Right? ;-)

--Linda

[Pooka1]

I totally agree that that statement is true.

And, for the record, I never (at least publicly) called Weiss a quack. I called a statement of his quacky, which I still believe.

--Linda

The entire paragraph, almost stem to stern, is bone fide Q-U-A-C-K-Y. Quakiness itself. Quacky incarnate. Not even a little bit NOT quacky. The opposite of mainstream. EX-mainstream.

Apologies to Monty Python.

[Pooka1]

Joe has said many times, that he is not a medical professional (nor is he a PhD).

Mamamax, have you seen O'Brien use the "Dr." title? Why did you refer to him as a Doctor?

[Pooka1]

And, so when your kid's curve reaches say 70-80 degrees, I assume you'll allow them to be put in a control group and not have surgery. Right? ;-)

In these situations, I ask, WWWD? (What Would Weiss Do?)

I think he wouldn't put the kid in a control group but might suggest some exercises.