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Melatonin may have helped my son's Scoliosis

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Dingo View Post
    1) All children with Scoliosis have muscle asymmetry
    Yes due to the curving spine.

    2) Specific strength training exercises eliminate muscle asymmetry
    Yes strength training can compensate for the asymmetric muscling as can laser-like attention to symmetry, and compensation for uncorrectable asymmetry, is required for dressage.

    3) Once the asymmetry is eliminated curves stop progressing and can even reverse
    Exercise has not been shown to stop curve progression in my understanding. Smaller curves stop, correct, and sometimes disappear completely in patients who do nothing including no targeted exercises.

    To me it's pretty clear that asymmetry is the problem. Someone might come up with a better explanation but until that point this looks strong.
    Are you saying the muscle asymmetry caused the scoliosis? What is the evidence for that? That might be the case in scoliosis related to polio but I don't know that. I think that has been ruled out for AIS or else it wouldn't be called AIS.
    Last edited by Pooka1; 05-29-2009, 11:38 AM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

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    • #17
      Not sure if that's true

      1) All children with Scoliosis have muscle asymmetry
      Yes due to the curving spine.
      Actually I don't believe that's true. At the very least I know that the nervous system in the spine does not function the same way in children with AIS when compared to children with Scoliosis that has a known cause, i.e. physical deformity. Nerve signals run up and down the spine slower in children with AIS and this is not related to their curve.

      Exercise has not been shown to stop curve progression in my understanding.
      Three studies found that Torso rotation can stop and even reverse curve progression. Here is a link to the first study. Check out page 4 and keep in mind that none of these kids were braced.

      Are you saying the muscle asymmetry caused the scoliosis? What is the evidence for that? That might be the case in scoliosis related to polio but I don't know that. I think that has been ruled out for AIS or else it wouldn't be called AIS.
      You are right, it's currently unproven. But I believe that's where the evidence is taking us.
      Last edited by Dingo; 05-29-2009, 11:49 AM.

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      • #18
        What I want to know when I read a study like the one you Linked is:

        What is going on with their curves today?

        The paper is 6 years old. I suppose the researchers have moved on with their lives, but I would love to know how the kids made out in the long term.

        The nice thing about the papers from the SpineCor folks is that they report on the same cohort of patients and follow them up over time (with many now having reached 5 years post brace). Of course, I would like to see all their xrays independently (and blindly) measured and the results presented.

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        • #19
          Longterm I dunno

          concerned dad

          Here is an old thread that may provide some insight.

          Gerbo
          Similarly to what i asked a year ago, are you still following your initial study group and has stabilisation been maintained?
          Dr. Mooney
          I have followed some and stabilization has been maintained.

          Journal of Musculoskeletal Medicine - March 2007
          This one is a little hard to read but it's interesting. Therapists in New Zealand tried the same protocol and produced the same results.

          The last 2 sentences in the conclusion are unambiguous.

          Brief exercises performed twice a week are adequate. Braces are not necessary.

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          • #20
            My neck is going to curve reading that paper (scanned at an angle)


            Is that what you mean by "hard to read"?

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            • #21
              disclaimer

              concerned dad

              My neck is going to curve reading that paper (scanned at an angle)
              Yeah, it's terrible. Maybe I should have included a disclaimer.

              Reading this paper can potentially give you Scoliosis.

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              • #22
                I'm doing an interview with a spine surgeon who holds patents on several medical devices. Some of these are for Scoliosis, others are designed for other spinal problems. I hope to post the whole thing within the next week or two.
                Dingo! This sure sounds like my "mad scientist" what with his explanation of the mechanical cause of scoliosis! I hope it is, I'd love to hear more about his research. You're awesome if you got an interview with him....

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                • #23
                  I don't want to give anything away but...

                  Ballet Mom

                  Thanks! Well... I don't want to give anything away just yet.

                  I'm just waiting for the answers to my follow-ups right now.

                  Hopefully I'll have it up ASAP!

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                  • #24
                    Thank you Dingo!

                    And what's really great about his view of the mechanical reasons for scoliosis is it sounds like it could perhaps be treated in the future without surgery or bracing! That is simply wonderful.

                    If the posterior structures can be stretched-out by hormones of pregnancy, exercise, sleep, etc. or the anterior structure shorten by dehydration of the disk, aging, hormones, etc.; then the curve would be expected to improve.
                    Trying not to jump to conclusions, maybe all our debating about whether bracing works or not is futile! Maybe a shot of pregnancy hormone to the ligaments at the back of the spine and some exercises could stop the progression. Wouldn't that be something. And maybe that's why the brace and dance is working for my daughter. Perhaps the stretching of the back during ballet and the stretching of her spine with the Charleston's dramatic correction is helping to stretch out those tight ligaments at the back of the spine. Very, very interesting. Thank you so much for pursuing this.

                    And taking it a little further, maybe the DNA test could be used in doctor's offices at kids' physicals to see who, prior to the onset of the adolescent growth spurt, could benefit by being treated before the curve starts its rapid onset and really minimize the amount of spine curvature that occurs before being detected physically. Fantastic...but I am running away with my imagination here, and should stop. But really thrilling thoughts, to me anyway.

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                    • #25
                      stretching

                      Perhaps the stretching of the back during ballet and the stretching of her spine with the Charleston's dramatic correction is helping to stretch out those tight ligaments at the back of the spine.
                      I say this without scientific data to back myself up. However...

                      Nearly all spinal growth takes place at night. If stretching helps at all it's probably most benefical right before a child goes to sleep.

                      After my son brushes his teeth he does 50 rotations with a stabliity ball. It looks just like this video except we don't do the chest press part. I stand behind him to make sure he stretches the same speed and distance in each direction. I put my hands up to block the ball if he goes too far. Then we sit down and stretch out for a couple of minutes like this. After that he gets into bed and I use a massager like this model on his back for about a minute. The whole thing takes less than 5 minutes and it loosens him up tremendously.

                      I don't know if this works but it makes sense that it could. Like I said before I can't wait 10 years for the clinical study.

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                      • #26
                        interested

                        Dingo....

                        Have been reading your posts with great interest.....thanks for sharing...look forward to hearing more of your ideas....in the future

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                        • #27
                          Thanks Hope

                          hope404

                          Thanks Hope,

                          Sitting around and doing nothing was a nightmare for me. I was relieved when I discovered that there were things parents can do that probably help and certainly won't hurt. I hope these things help other kids besides my own.

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                          • #28
                            doing nothing

                            Dingo,
                            "sitting around and doing nothing"

                            Being a parent of a child with Scoliosis,to be honest, has been maddening!!!

                            There is so little info. and so few options. I can't count the number of nights

                            I've pondered ...what causes it...how to fix it...etc. As an Occupational therapist, I've seen severe scoliosis cases where the child is froze in various
                            reflex states. Assymetrical Tonic Neck Reflex being the most common. Has my child not integrated the various postural reflexes earlier in life ????? Why is one side of her spine "over firing" and the other side not...??? Is one of the postural reflexes (which should be gone) still present in a dysfunctional sort of way??? Could Occupational Therapy, which can do therapy to help integrate the postural reflexes, help???

                            I identify with your need to do something while your child is so young (VERY SMART!!!) Wish you the best.

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                            • #29
                              oops

                              Didn't realize I was in the Melatonin thread..

                              Just a side note..my daughter (who has the scoliosis) is the only one of our 6 member family with terrible sleep issues. Very restless sleep...talks in her sleep...wakes up super early... can't fall back asleep..blah..blah. Has had these issues since childhood.

                              Have started to darken her room more and give her a Melatonin supplement(she's 18)...see if it helps.

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                              • #30
                                Idiopathic Scoliosis

                                hope404

                                The underlying cause of a lot (maybe most) idiopathic scoliosis appears to be a dysfunction in the central nervous system. This disorder can be detected with a simple blood test.

                                I've talked to one of the researchers involved in the Scoliosis blood test and it could FDA approved and in use as soon as this year. I've heard through the grapevine that an announcement is imminent.

                                Here is the study that this test is partially based on.
                                Melatonin Signaling Dysfunction in Adolescent Idiopathic Scoliosis

                                I think it's still a mystery why this causes the back to rotate and curve. Evidently it leads to muscle asymmetry in the spine because all children with Scoliosis have trunk rotational asymmetry. On the surface this could easily be explained away as a side effect of the curved spine. But studies prove that it's more than a side effect because eliminating the asymmetry corrects Scoliotic curves.

                                Asymmetry combined with growth appears to be where the rubber meets the road.
                                Last edited by Dingo; 06-01-2009, 11:13 PM.

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