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Thread: SOSORT Lyon 2009

  1. #1
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    SOSORT Lyon 2009

    Swimmergirlmom posted a link to one of the abstracts for this years SOSORT conference in response to a discussion in another thread.

    All the abstracts are posted on the SOSORT website here. I thought this deserved its' own thread. Lots of talks will be given in a couple of weeks related to things we've batted around here (Adult Spinecor, Genetics, Melatonin, .....)

    Of interest to me was the abstract from Lori Dolan about Braist status to be followed by a scathing rebuttal from Weiss. That would be an interesting way to spend a morning (followed of course by an afternoon sipping some good french wine).

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    Right on!!!

    Thanks for the heads up.

    I scrolled to the study link page and found this.

    Age variations of melatonin level and its hormesis; implications for AIS and osteoporosis.

    Discussion: It is documented the bone-protecting effect of melatonin in ovariectomized rats which can depend in part on the free radical scavenging properties of melatonin. Additionally, melatonin may impair development of osteopenia associated with senescence by improving non-rapid eye movement sleep and restoring GH secretion. Whether modulation of melatonin blood levels can be used as a novel mode of therapy for scoliosis and augmenting bone mass in diseases deserves to be studied.
    It references another study that indicates that Melatonin appears to strengthen bones.

    Melatonin effects on bone: experimental facts and clinical perspectives

    And that goes full circle back to this thread.

    Recent study on Melatonin and Scoliosis

    As an aside my son has two sets of black out curtains on his window and no nightlight. At night his room is as dark as a cave.
    Last edited by Dingo; 05-09-2009 at 04:17 PM.

  3. #3
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    Another controversial talk will be the one by the Axial bio folks saying bracing doesnt work.

    Anyone care to comment on their abstract?

    It looks like they have already responded to some comments on their talk. (on the last page of the link)

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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned dad View Post
    Another controversial talk will be the one by the Axial bio folks saying bracing doesnt work.

    Anyone care to comment on their abstract?

    It looks like they have already responded to some comments on their talk. (on the last page of the link)
    Note their comment about MZ twins...(emphasis added)

    "Your two questions are very important. Monozygotic twins are a "birth defect" occurring in the first two weeks of gestation. Depending on the age of the embryo at cleavage, allocation of blastomeres, availability of cytoplasmic components, reorientation of one twins' three major axes and subsequent timing differences in establishment of the other two axes and vagaries of placental circulation, when considering midline disorders such as scoliosis, monozygotic twins are an uncertain research model. AIS is a disorder with strong genetic determinants including the ability to predict curve progression which occurs outside of the intra-uterine environment."

    This is consistent with the observation that MZ twins can have radically different curve particulars (magnitude, rate of curvature, etc.)
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned dad View Post
    Swimmergirlmom posted a link to one of the abstracts for this years SOSORT conference in response to a discussion in another thread.

    All the abstracts are posted on the SOSORT website here. I thought this deserved its' own thread. Lots of talks will be given in a couple of weeks related to things we've batted around here (Adult Spinecor, Genetics, Melatonin, .....)

    Of interest to me was the abstract from Lori Dolan about Braist status to be followed by a scathing rebuttal from Weiss. That would be an interesting way to spend a morning (followed of course by an afternoon sipping some good french wine).
    I cannot get the file: Kyphosis: Physiotherapy & bracing to open CD - can you? It's a zip file, and when i open it its all hieroglyphics.

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    Bracing doesn't work

    Another controversial talk will be the one by the Axial bio folks saying bracing doesnt work.
    That sounds financially motivated. I would guess from that statement that they are doing research on a therapy that competes with bracing.

    Don't get me wrong, more power to em! I hope they continue their research. But I smell shenanigans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    That sounds financially motivated. I would guess from that statement that they are doing research on a therapy that competes with bracing.

    Don't get me wrong, more power to em! I hope they continue their research. But I smell shenanigans.
    Beyond the Scoliscore guys, some large percentage of orthopedic surgeons will sit there and tell you bracing has not been show to work and in fact don't prescribe bracing. And these guys don't get sued (successfully) for malpractice. At this point, I think we can safely assume that when folks say bracing is unproven, they are correct, medically AND legally.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

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    Quote Originally Posted by mamamax View Post
    I cannot get the file: Kyphosis: Physiotherapy & bracing to open CD - can you? It's a zip file, and when i open it its all hieroglyphics.
    Hi Mamamax
    I am able to open the Kyphosis: Physiotherapy & bracing file.
    Try this: Click on the link on the SOSORT site. When the pop up asks "Do you want to Open or Save this file?", choose "Save".
    Then go to where you saved the download on your computer and double click on the Zip folder - inside that folder will be an excel document. I was able to open the excel document by double clicking from there.
    The document seems to have multiple tabs that give the results of how different health care professionals answered a bunch of questions related to physiotherapy & bracing.
    If you don't have Microsoft Excel, then I'm not sure how you can open the file but then hopefully someone else will know how.
    Good luck!

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    bracing

    Pooka1

    And these guys don't get sued (successfully) for malpractice. At this point, I think we can safely assume that when folks say bracing is unproven, they are correct, medically AND legally.
    Clearly I don't buy that but you are entitled to your own opinion.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    Clearly I don't buy that but you are entitled to your own opinion.
    Can I just ask which part you don't buy?

    That there are many surgeons out there who don't brace?

    That these surgeons are never sued successfully for malpractice for not prescribing bracing?

    What?

    How do you suppose the BRAIST study can ethically go forward as we type with an observation group? There are panels of people who vet the ethics of every medical trial. Do you also disagree with all those people who let the study go forward?

    Is watching and waiting ethical in your opinion?

    We happened to run into two surgeons who don't think bracing has been shown to work. What are the odds of that? They must be more numerous than folks think.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

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    Sharon, I dont buy the part about the absence of lawsuits being used as a line of evidence regarding bracing efficacy.
    (but I do buy the fact that the very existence of the Braist trial is evidence we dont know one way or the other - evidence, not proof)

    Dingo, I dont think the paper was financially motivated, if anything, the opposite is true. The guys who wrote the paper want to sell a test to assess curve progression risk. Why take the test if there is nothing you can do except wait and worry. The test is much more valuable if there is something you can do after getting a bad test result (P said this in the axial thread i think)

    Sharon, I thought you would like the comments in the paper about the problems with twin studies as they agreed with what you have been saying all along.
    Unfortunately, you have to realize most published results are false


    Swimmergirlsmom and mamamax, that spreadsheet probably shouldnt even be there. It gives the response of individuals to the census questions (by name). I can see posting colated results, but I think this was a mistake to give names and their responses.
    Of course, I would love to see the individual responses from the Equipoise survey (recall that 2 respondents said bracing in all cases would have a worse outcome than watching - I think she excluded those from the study figuring they interpreted the question wrong)
    Last edited by concerned dad; 05-10-2009 at 08:57 AM.

  12. #12
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    Hi Sharon....

    I've not seen evidence of scoliosis specialists not bracing, although I'm sure there are a few. Is there any evidence that there are many?

    --Linda

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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned dad View Post
    Sharon, I dont buy the part about the absence of lawsuits being used as a line of evidence regarding bracing efficacy.
    (but I do buy the fact that the very existence of the Braist trial is evidence we dont know one way or the other - evidence, not proof)
    That's interesting because I view the continued presence of several orthopedic surgeons who don't brace as proof they are not being sued out of existence for malpractice. That is the strongest proof I can imagine for the lack of efficacy of bracing, much stronger than the BRAIST study which is good evidence but really just probably one panel (maybe more) of ethicists.

    Sharon, I thought you would like the comments in the paper about the problems with twin studies as they agreed with what you have been saying all along.
    Unfortunately, you have to realize most published results are false
    I know! I have to stop believing everything I read. Thanks for calmly talking me off the ledge (again).
    Last edited by Pooka1; 05-10-2009 at 02:00 PM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

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    Quote Originally Posted by LindaRacine View Post
    Hi Sharon....

    I've not seen evidence of scoliosis specialists not bracing, although I'm sure there are a few. Is there any evidence that there are many?

    --Linda
    I haven't researched it per se.

    I can say that the one surgeon we were referred to by the pediatrician doesn't brace and told me there is no good evidence bracing works. And the other who said he didn't brace until recently when he saw some data on the Charleston. The data I've seen do not purport that the Charleston is likely to work in any given case so I will have to ask him which papers he thinks look promising. I think he just thinks it's worth a shot and not too odious as a night-time only brace. We got no guarantees about the brace helping my daughter to avoid surgery. My feeling is my daughter could stop wearing it with a clean conscience based on the papers I've seen.

    The other thing is I saw a video of a Scoliosis meeting where the presenter did a show of hands asking the surgeons/researchers if they thought bracing worked or if we don't know if it works or something like that. Several hands went up for the no proof it works question though it didn't look like the majority.

    But to the others I ask where is the proof? I think they are just being hopeful or responding to if they "think" versus "know" it works. Who knows.

    There is some reason the BRAIST observation group got past the ethicists. That reason is because the jury is out on bracing. I'd like to get a show of hands from those same guys about that.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by LindaRacine View Post
    Hi Sharon....

    I've not seen evidence of scoliosis specialists not bracing, although I'm sure there are a few. Is there any evidence that there are many?

    --Linda
    If you are a participating physician in the Braist study you are not bracing half your patients
    (well, less than half because you have patients not participating in the study)
    and there are more than a few participating centers.

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