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Thread: Scioliosis is caused by infectious disease

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    But the fact that both are so low argues against a "natural" Scoliosis biology.
    One aberrant study says it's low.

    Therefore it isn't low.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

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    "We are all African."

  2. #77
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    Well, if I understand this correctly, unless the concordance were 1 (or darn close to it) there is an environental contribution.

    Can we agree on that?

    None of the studies says it is close to 1.

    So the "abberance" of this study just goes to the degree of environmental influence. Not the need for the presence of an environmental influence.

    (And I think we all know where you stand on the creationist issue. I know you feel you cant affirm it enough, but I suspect you're just preaching to the choir here and potentially offending those who feel otherwise - just my 2 cents on that )

  3. #78
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    Eneterovirus

    concerned dad

    First of all AWESOME FIND on the the pool study and Scoliosis. WOW!

    Do parasites live in clorinated pools?
    Yep.

    Occurrence of enteroviruses in community swimming pools.

    Municipal swimming pools and wading pools were examined for the presence of human enteric viruses using a portable virus concentrator at the site to concentrate viruses from 100-gallon to 500-gallon samples. Ten of 14 samples contained viruses; three of these were positive for virus in the presence of residual free chlorine. Enteroviruses were isolated from two pools which exceeded the 0.4 ppm free residual chlorine standard. This study appears to be supportive of recent evidence that indicates a higher incidence of enterovirus infection among bathers. All seven wading pool samples contained virus. Coxsackieviruses B3 and B4, poliovirus 1, and echovirus 7 were isolated. Total coliform bacteria were not adequate indicators of the presence of virus, as six of the samples were positive for virus but negative for coliforms. Total plate counts appeared to provide a better indication of the sanitary quality of the pool water, but viruses could still be detected in samples that met currently recommended bacterial levels. It is possible that swimming and wading pools may serve as a means of transmission of enteroviral disease, especially in children, during summer months.
    Not only can Enterovirus live in Chlorinated water but scientists have strong evidence that it is the trigger for Type 1 Diabetes.

    Olympic swimmer Gary Hall Jr. was diagnosed with Type 1 Diabetes at around the age of 25. It's extremely rare for someone that old to come down with Type 1 however he spent countless hours in pools.

  4. #79
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    concordance

    concerned dad

    Well, if I understand this correctly, unless the concordance were 1 (or darn close to it) there is an environental contribution.

    Can we agree on that?
    Yes.
    Even if concordance was 80% that doesn't mean Scoliosis is 80% genetic. It means that Scoliosis is SOME genetic and SOME environment.

    Regardless of the ratio it's important that we determine what the environmental input is. That's the part we can do something about.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned dad View Post
    Well, if I understand this correctly, unless the concordance were 1 (or darn close to it) there is an environmental contribution.

    Can we agree on that?
    Not necessarily. Then we look to flaws in the study design.

    None of the studies says it is close to 1.

    So the "aberrance" of this study just goes to the degree of environmental influence. Not the need for the presence of an environmental influence.
    Possibly.

    (And I think we all know where you stand on the creationist issue. I know you feel you cant affirm it enough, but I suspect you're just preaching to the choir here and potentially offending those who feel otherwise - just my 2 cents on that )
    I would not cry if young earth creationists left ALL public fora, whether through being offended or whatever. They have shown their inability or unwillingness to handle or accept scientific evidence and so are not really useful for discussing any remotely scientific/medical topic in my opinion. They have shown a callous disregard for intellectual honesty which is arguably the entire game.

    Perhaps constant reminders will help them start making sense. Or perhaps they will leave public fora on rational issues. Six on one hand, half a dozen on the other.

    I am not saying kick them out. I AM saying they need to start making sense if they want to be taken seriously on ANY scientific/medical matter or anything that requires intellectual honesty.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  6. #81
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    Scoliosis epidemic

    Observations on idiopathic scoliosis aetiology and natural history in Jamaica - abstract

    In 1953, the Orthopaedic Department at the University of the West Indies opened. Over the next five years, careful records were kept of the diagnosis of every patient seen in the Clinics. Amongst the findings was the observation that the idiopathic form of scoliosis appeared to be uncommon. There was a strong impression that the incidence of scoliosis was altering. From the second half of 1956, records of every patient with scoliosis from whatever cause have been kept. Only cases of severity great enough to attend an Orthopaedic Clinic and found to have a curve measuring over 10 degrees have been included. These records show that scoliosis has been an unusual condition from at least 1920 when our earliest case was reported as having developed. The condition continued to be unusal up to 1963. Then the whole position began to change. The records of the dates of presentation of new cases showed that there was a sudden increase after 1960 so that these patients became a major clinical problem. The increase in frequency rose rapidly till 1982. Then began a downturn in the number of cases which have continued. This has been in spite of a continuing annual population increase of 1.5 per cent and a steady 50 per cent of the population remaining under 15 years of age. Over the thirty-two years of this study, the general pattern of idiopathic scoliosis seen elsewhere has been found. In addition to the idiopathic group, there were almost 10 per cent due to some obvious cause. The infantile and juvenile types were seen only seldom. It was found that the idiopathic scoliosis patient was consistently above the average height for her age group and that the normal growth spurt appeared earlier in the idiopathic group than in other children. Thus, in Jamaica, there has been almost an epidemic of idiopathic scoliosis which started around 1963 and began to fall off after 1982. The increase in both the heights of these patients and their metacarpal indices suggests that something may have stimulated growth (AU)
    Evidently the Scoliosis gene spread like an epidemic between 1963 and 1982. After that natural selection stepped in and it began to die out. Flu genes do the same thing year after year. Right now the Swine flu gene is spreading through Mexico.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    Olympic swimmer Gary Hall Jr. was diagnosed with Type 1 Diabetes at around the age of 25. It's extremely rare for someone that old to come down with Type 1 however he spent countless hours in pools.
    I personally know two people diagnosed with Type 1 at the age of 30 (my brother and my post doc adviser).

    Can't be that rare.

    And neither spent inordinate amounts of time in pools. In the case of my brother, about the same as I spent in pools and I don't have it.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    I personally know two people diagnosed with Type 1 at the age of 30 (my brother and my post doc adviser).

    Can't be that rare.
    I cant resist playing along ....

    You say it cant be that rare, Well, maybe you just know a lot more people than the average Joe and indeed it is rare.


    Reminds me (strangly enough) of the old line

    "I've finally realized the common thread in all my disfunctional relationships is...... ME"

    Dingo, interesting Jamaica paper.

    Also, you say
    Regardless of the ratio it's important that we determine what the environmental input is. That's the part we can do something about.
    I dunno. Maybe we can do something about the genetic part too.
    I happen to own a chunk of stock in a company working on what may be a cure for DMD. The company stock symbol is AVII and you can google it to find info about a currently ongoing clinical trial that we hope will show some real promise in curing this genetic disease. I have to admit, I dont fully understand the science but it at least "sounds" exciting. (This is NOT a stock tip!!!!! I have lost money on this stock and could very well loose much more)

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned dad View Post
    I cant resist playing along ....

    You say it cant be that rare, Well, maybe you just know a lot more people than the average Joe and indeed it is rare.
    NOT! I am a hermetic recluse compared to most folks. I have few friends by choice. I like my research that requires that I'm alone in the field or out with one or a few people and I like doing bench chemistry where I'm in a lab alone and they throw food under the door. Overall, I prefer to ride my horse, alone or with an instructor helping me hone my riding skills.

    Reminds me (strangly enough) of the old line

    "I've finally realized the common thread in all my disfunctional relationships is...... ME"
    Six on one hand, half a dozen on the other. The point is to do interesting research and maximize my saddle time.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  10. #85
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    And Dingo, I set you up earlier

    Do parasites live in clorinated pools?

    Yep.
    Even though I cant spell clorinated, I do know that nasty stuff can survive in pools


    But about your Jamaica study, I wonder if anyone looked at the incidence of scoliosis in remote populations. I've spent a lot of time in the Amazon Jungle for work and recently wondered about the occurence of scoliosis in some of the tribal peoples there. (although so many of them now are wearing Adidas t-shirts, so much for "remote")

  11. #86
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    Scoliosis and infection

    concerned dad

    Dingo, interesting Jamaica paper.
    Like Schizophrenia I believe that all of the Scoliosis clues point towards infection in both humans and animals.

    I've spent a lot of time in the Amazon Jungle for work and recently wondered about the occurence of scoliosis in some of the tribal peoples there. (although so many of them now are wearing Adidas t-shirts, so much for "remote")
    The answer to that question might tell us a lot. Scoliosis might be really common in some tribes and virtually nonexistent in others.
    Last edited by Dingo; 05-06-2009 at 06:13 PM.

  12. #87
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    P is probably too busy or annoyed to chime in so I had to reread some old posts to try to understand the difference of opinion.

    P said => The article that I referenced in this thread was a very good genetic study that, I think, has a simple take home message. A person's risk of acquiring scoliosis is determined more by one's environment rather than genetics.
    So, this study is both DIngo's "pet study" and one that P thinks is good also.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Together, this means that self-reports of either zigosity status or even having a curve is highly suspect to the point of it being very likely GIGO. FULL STOP
    Sharon doesnt think much of it because of the self reporting issue. I did a search and didnt see any mention of that as a drawback to the Danish Twin Study. The registry has been used for many many more studies than scoliosis. Perhaps I didnt look hard enough.

    Apparently the difference of opinion goes to the infectious disease thing. Everyone agrees there is an environmental component to scoliosis.

    Both Dingo and P believe the environmental component is stronger than the genetic component. (not sure where Sharon stands on that).

    DIngo thinks it is likely an infectious disease and backs his theory up with similar afflictions.

    P says correlation is not causation but doesnt really offer any theories about what may be involved.

    OK, maybe I'm being gullable, but I think infectious diseases deserve a closer look.

    (and just to let Sharon and Dingo know, I deleted the thread about SIDS and infantile scoliosis because discussing it publicly might do more harm than good)

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned dad View Post
    P is probably too busy or annoyed to chime in so I had to reread some old posts to try to understand the difference of opinion.
    I think the dope-slapping cannot be far off...

    Sharon doesnt think much of it because of the self reporting issue. I did a search and didnt see any mention of that as a drawback to the Danish Twin Study. The registry has been used for many many more studies than scoliosis. Perhaps I didnt look hard enough.
    There would be no reason to suspect the huge under-reporting of MZ twins. There is no way the authors could know it absent walking around for several years with twins and meeting other parents of twins who appear scarcely sane on the zigosity of the kids.

    When I realized it was happening, I couldn't explain it and certainly couldn't have predicted it. Many folks are laboring under a BOATLOAD of false notions about how different kids can be and still be MZ. Most parents of putative MZ twins (i.e., twins I would bet $1,000 of my money are MZ like the Olsen twins) are simply WRONG in their reasons for denying their kids are MZ. I mean the Olsen twins sound ridiculous when they deny they are identical and give their "reasons." There seems to also be some psychological resistance to the notion of MZ versus DZ twins but I can't prove that.

    And since we know MZ twins can have radically different curves, it is possible the scoliosis incidence hasn't been (self) reported correctly either.

    Apparently the difference of opinion goes to the infectious disease thing. Everyone agrees there is an environmental component to scoliosis.

    Both Dingo and P believe the environmental component is stronger than the genetic component. (not sure where Sharon stands on that).
    I think it is still a great unknown at this point and that genetic differences like gene copy number need to be ruled out before constructing a dichotomy like genes VERSUS environment.

    In short, there is too much that is unknown at this point to have a rational, educated opinion on the matter in my (hopefully!) rational, lay opinion.

    DIngo thinks it is likely an infectious disease and backs his theory up with similar afflictions.

    P says correlation is not causation but doesnt really offer any theories about what may be involved.

    OK, maybe I'm being gullible, but I think infectious diseases deserve a closer look.
    Yes certainly but Dingo is claiming this is the most likely scenario at this point. The evidence doesn't support that for scoliosis.
    Last edited by Pooka1; 05-07-2009 at 06:43 PM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Yes certainly but Dingo is claiming this is the most likely scenario at this point. The evidence doesn't support that for scoliosis.
    It seems like the most likely scenario because there are no other scenarios offered.

    What about Occams Razor: Of two equivalent theories or explanations, all other things being equal, the simpler one is to be preferred.

  15. #90
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    Okay. So is gene copy number simpler or more complex than a parasitic infection as causing/controlling the onset and degree of curvature in scoliosis?

    And whatever is simplest is NOT going to entail cAMP in my opinion.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

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