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Thread: Scioliosis is caused by infectious disease

  1. #106
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    Reading is fundamental

    Pooka1

    Before you hypothesize that scientists purposely infected these animals to cause Scoliosis you might want to read the 4 abstracts.

    In any case why would it matter if these animals were purposely infected? The point is that infections triggered scoliosis in a variety of animals.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    Pooka1

    Before you hypothesize that scientists purposely infected these animals to cause Scoliosis you might want to read the 4 abstracts.

    In any case why would it matter if these animals were purposely infected? The point is that infections triggered scoliosis in a variety of animals.
    Okay I read the abstracts. They were speculative on the whole.

    I don't see the connection to AIS in humans. I don't see any great case is made for a parasitic cause for AIS based on those abstracts. They haven't even shown that the parasite infection was the cause and not some sequelae.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

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  3. #108
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    Idiopathic Scoliosis

    Pooka1

    Okay I read the abstracts. They were speculative on the whole.
    The scientists involved in those studies believed that the cause was infection and I have no reason to doubt their opinions. However in your eyes those cases of scoliosis in animals were idiopathic. Fair enough.
    Last edited by Dingo; 06-02-2009 at 08:58 PM.

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    The point is that infections triggered scoliosis in a variety of animals.
    I read you abstracts: Do any of these descriptions look at all like the human condition?



    Horse Scoliosis triggered by parasite
    This report documents 6 horses with acquired cervical scoliosis related to a unilateral inflammatory lesion of the dorsal grey column extending over many cervical or cervical and thoracic spinal cord segments

    Alpaca scoliosis triggered by parasite
    The alpaca's condition continued to deteriorate, and it developed tetraparesis and ataxia and was euthanized after approximately 1 month. Microscopic evaluation of the cervical spinal cord revealed marked vacuolar changes in the left medial portion of the ventral funiculus, mild lymphoplasmacytic infiltration, and multifocal granulomas. The lesions were continuous from C1 to C7 and were compatible with parasite migration.
    Goat scoliosis triggered by parasite
    An isolated case and an outbreak of parelaphostrongylosis in goats are described. Signs included tetraparesis, hemiparesis, tetraplegia, spastic gait, scoliosis, vestibular strabismus, blindness, and death.
    The Fish question is different.
    Fish scoliosis triggered by parasite

    The authors state:
    Myxobolus buri Egusa, 1985, is a well-documented myxosporean parasite that causes the scoliosis of cultured yellowtail Seriola quinqueradiata.
    If this statement is true, then it isn't documented in English.

  5. #110
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    Scoliosis

    Scoliosis triggered by Polio has a lot to do with inflammation in the spine. That might not be too different from some of these. The horse version mentions inflammation.

    The AIS we think of is closely related to or caused by a disorder in the nervous system. We don't know why this occurs, it's idiopathic.

    If a microbe is triggering Scoliosis in genetically susceptible children it's probably not operating like a wrecking ball the way Polio or those animal cases work. It's probably an autoimmune disease like Narcolepsy or Type 1 diabetes. In case you haven't been paying attention scientists recently proved that Narcolepsy is an autoimmune disease probably triggered by a microbe.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    Scoliosis triggered by Polio has a lot to do with inflammation in the spine. That might not be too different from some of these. The horse version mentions inflammation.

    The AIS we think of is closely related to or caused by a disorder in the nervous system. We don't know why this occurs, it's idiopathic.

    If a microbe is triggering Scoliosis in genetically susceptible children it's probably not operating like a wrecking ball the way Polio or those animal cases work. It's probably an autoimmune disease like Narcolepsy or Type 1 diabetes. In case you haven't been paying attention scientists recently proved that Narcolepsy is an autoimmune disease probably triggered by a microbe.
    All these animals (except the fish-because I couldn't confirm anything) ended up dead.

    Just so you know where I am coming from.
    I refuse to believe that any of these "animal models" recapitulates the human version of AIS. There are too many different variables. If I wrote a research proposal, citing your examples and said that I wanted to infect fish with a parasite to study the biology of scoliosis because it may lead to a better understanding of human scoliosis, I would NEVER get funding. I would get a criticism so harsh that would probably block me from ever resubmitting the proposal.

    Researchers are constantly arguing about how good a animal model really is. We use inbred lines of mice to minimize genetic variability. We try to make genetic changes specific to a particular time in development. We target specific tissues. We attempt to test a single variable at a time and validate results with various tests to make sure that we get a good grasp at the reality.

    From my point of view, there a HUGE leaps in logic when you say that a parasite or virus (or whatever your current pathogen is) causing anything that looks like human AIS. I won't believe your argument today or next week or next year.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    In case you haven't been paying attention scientists recently proved that Narcolepsy is an autoimmune disease probably triggered by a microbe.
    Funny. This article is about a genetic study.

    "They pinpointed three specific genetic variants in the same gene in people with European and Asian ancestry that appeared to be associated with an increased susceptibility for narcolepsy."

    "Dr Mignot said: "Narcolepsy is probably the result of a series of unfortunate events, starting with genetic predisposition. . ."

    "But she added: "Disease expression is rarely the result of one single factor."

  8. #113
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    You cut off the last line

    PNUTTRO

    "Dr Mignot said: "Narcolepsy is probably the result of a series of unfortunate events, starting with genetic predisposition. . ."
    You cut off the last line

    Dr Mignot said: "Narcolepsy is probably the result of a series of unfortunate events, starting with genetic predisposition, involvement of an environmental trigger such as an infection, then T-cell activation, then effects on many other arms of the immune system."

    Many diseases (perhaps most) are triggered by a combination of genetic susceptability and environmental damage. If you google Narcolepsy you'll find that the dominant theory is that a virus triggers the immune response, much like Type 1 Diabetes.
    Last edited by Dingo; 06-04-2009 at 09:57 AM.

  9. #114
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    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

    Three-dimensional spring model: A new hypothesis of pathogenesis of adolescent idiopathic scoliosis.
    Yang Z, Xie Y, Li M.

    Scoliosis Research Center, Orthopedic Department, Changhai Hospital, Second Military Medical University, Shanghai 200433, China.

    The pathogenesis of adolescent idiopathic scoliosis (AIS) has been the subject of many studies, but remains little understood. Previous work has shown that there is a correlation between the uncoupled spinal neuro-osseous growth and AIS. We believe that this uncoupled spinal neuro-osseous growth may also contribute to formation of normal curvature of the spine in the sagittal plane during the childhood. We speculate a three-dimensional spring model to better understand our hypothesis. The normal curvature of the spine, the uncoupled spinal neuro-osseous growth, and the overgrowth of the spine in the puberty may be the crucial factors in the pathogenesis of AIS.

  10. #115
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    interesting link

    LindaRacine

    Previous work has shown that there is a correlation between the uncoupled spinal neuro-osseous growth and AIS.
    That's an interesting link. This work may facilitate a deeper understanding of the mechanical dysfunction that leads to AIS. But there still has to be a cause for this mechanical dysfunction. That's where an infection or a dozen other possibilities might come into play.

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    Many diseases (perhaps most) are triggered by a combination of genetic susceptability and environmental damage. If you google Narcolepsy you'll find that the dominant theory is that a virus triggers the immune response, much like Type 1 Diabetes.
    You pose two different models in this thread.
    1. an overt infection with lesions and ultimate death of the individual--your animal references.
    2. an autoimmune model--narcolepsy, Type I diabetes, and MS.

    Which do think it really is?
    Or is it something else?

  12. #117
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    infection and scoliosis

    PNUTTRO

    Which do think it really is?
    Infections damage the body in multiple ways. I made my opinion on the cause of scoliosis very clear. Feel free to browse through the thread and read my posts.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    Infections damage the body in multiple ways. I made my opinion on the cause of scoliosis very clear. Feel free to browse through the thread and read my posts.
    But that is the problem. You cite various mechanisms how the parasite/bacteria/virus causes AIS. Toxicity and autoimmune seem to be the most common. I was just wondering if you have a preferred theory.

  14. #119
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    preferred theory

    PNUTTRO

    I was just wondering if you have a preferred theory.
    Children with AIS don't process melatonin properly because of a nervous system dysfunction. I assume that specialized cells in the nervous system have been killed or disabled. This might be caused by autoimmunity like Type 1 Diabetes or Narcolepsy. However it could just as easily be some sort of tropism. There are probably a dozen good explanations on how it might work. I don't have a strong opinion on the exact mechanism.

    Once scientists determine which cells have been compromised I'm sure they'll have strong opinions on what knocked them out.
    Last edited by Dingo; 06-08-2009 at 03:31 PM.

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