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Thread: Scioliosis is caused by infectious disease

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    Scioliosis is caused by infectious disease

    Everyone knows that Scoliosis is a common side effect of Polio infection.

    Do other infections cause Scoliosis? You bet.

    Fish scoliosis triggered by parasite

    Horse Scoliosis triggered by parasite

    Alpaca scoliosis triggered by parasite

    Goat scoliosis triggered by parasite

    Google Search: parasite scoliosis

    It bears repeating that if one identical twin has Scoliosis the other has it just 13% of the time. This strongly suggests that in most cases Scoliosis is triggered by something in the environment.

    13% pairwise concordance is roughly equivelant to what's found in Multiple Sclerosis which is triggered by Epstein Barr virus. Epstein Barr is more famously known as the cause of Mono "the kissing disease".

    In this landmark Scoliosis study all 58 children in the sample had the same type of nervous system disorder. Although they share the same disorder nobody is suggesting that they share the same gene or gene cluster. Every child in the sample had severe scoliosis that progressed to fusion and yet 2/3rds did not have a single 1st, 2nd or 3rd degree relative with any type of spinal deformity.
    Last edited by Dingo; 04-25-2009 at 02:57 PM.

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    My husband and I think there is a connection between our daughter's scoliosis, her very serious case of chicken pox with cellulitis and her subsequent serious case of PANDAS (Paediatric AutoImmune Neuropsychiatric Disorder Associated with Strep).

    PANDAS causes the immune system to attack itself (see quote below) and we have wondered if it has caused weakness in the muscles around her spine.

    The proposed theory of the pathophysiology of PANDAS is an immune-mediated model of molecular mimicry, the same mechanism suggested for rheumatic fever. After exposure to antigens on the surface of Group A beta-hemolytic streptococcus during a streptococcal infection, the body develops antibodies to combat the bacteria. In susceptible individuals, the antigenic area of the bacteria is similar enough to endogenous host tissue, causing a cross-reaction of the antibody to the host; therefore, formulating an autoimmune attack on it’s own tissue. This causes a local immune reaction to the targeted tissue; i.e. – brain, joints, heart valves. In rheumatic fever, this causes heart valve damage, arthritis, and abnormal neurological movements termed Sydenham’s chorea. In PANDAS the antibodies are thought to cross-react with neuronal tissue of the CNS, in particular the basal ganglia of the brain, which is responsible for movement and behavior – resulting in tics and/or OCD.

    PANDAS research is still in its early stages since this condition was only really recognized a few years ago. The doctors keep finding out new things about this condition. Maybe a connection will be found between PANDAS and scoliosis.

    My husband has talked to a couple of orthopaedic doctors about this possible connection but they tell us we would need to talk to a rheumatologist about this. Of course, we don't have access to a rheumatologist now since Esme is no longer symptomatic with the PANDAS.

    Anyway, this is just a hunch on our part. Maybe one day a connection will be made between PANDAS and scoliosis especially in those who are predisposed by other factors like having other scoliotic family members.

    It is hard to accept "idiopathic" as the explanation for scoliosis. It seems only logically there must be a reason/cause as yet undiscovered for the "idiopathic" cases.

    Ruth
    Ruth, 50 years old (s-shaped 30 degree scoliosis) with degenerative disc disease, married to Mike. Mother to two children - Son 18 and daughter 14. Both have idiopathic scoliosis. Son (T38, L29) has not needed surgery to date. Daughter (March 08 - T62, L63).

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    That's an interesting post though I wonder if those animal models will ever map to humans.

    In re this "old chestnut,"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    It bears repeating that if one identical twin has Scoliosis the other has it just 13% of the time. This strongly suggests that in most cases Scoliosis is triggered by something in the environment.
    I have been thinking about this. The big question in my mind is how/why did other ID twin studies report much higher concordance compared to this one?

    The question has to be asked why this one study disagrees with most/all of the others.

    That is more interesting to me than the actual results.

    I think there is almost certainly something in the methodology that will explain the difference. I would hope the full article addresses what they think is the reason for having results that have not been duplicated.

    I don't know if this figures in this but I certainly hope they didn't just take people's word on the matter of identical versus fraternal. I have noticed in real life there is a tendency to not admit identical twinning when it is seemingly obvious. A famous example is the Olsen twins who publicly claim they are not identical when it is beyond obvious they are identical. They substituted for each other on that show for years and they still appear far more identical than my own daughters who I know for a fact are identical (one chorion which is dispositive for identical twinning).

    The reasons given by people for thinking their kids are not identical are uniformly specious (two chorions, different freckle patterns, different hair swirl patterns, different heights/weights, etc.). My kids differ in most of these things and more biologically significant ones (one is allergic to sulfa drugs and the other is not) and yet are still identical.

    Now I don't think sulfa drug allergy is in the same category as scoliosis. I am just saying if one report differs from the bulk of the other reports, that one report needs further scrutiny. They may be right and all the other wrong but we have to know why. I'm skeptical until a reasonable explanation is on offer. They don't have to prove it at this point, it just has to be reasonable. But if later reports don't corroborate it, it's going to be some methodological problem.
    Last edited by Pooka1; 05-10-2009 at 08:31 PM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

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    Idiopathic

    Ruth

    It is hard to accept "idiopathic" as the explanation for scoliosis. It seems only logically there must be a reason/cause as yet undiscovered for the "idiopathic" cases.

    I agree, all illness has a cause. Idiopathic means that we don't know. When you hear a scientist say, "This particular disorder is caused by a complicated interaction between genes and the environment" that's fancy science talk for "I have no idea".

    I don't know if PANDAS is related to Scoliosis. Perhaps a compromised immune system leaves a child vulnerable to both.

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    twin studies

    Pooka1

    The Dutch twin study was credible because it used a large, representative sample from a twin registry. Work like that makes small studies with questionable samples obsolete.

    If the Dutch study is replicated using another twin registry it will cement the original find. Unless some shenanigans were going on in Denmark I doubt the numbers will be vastly different in other European countries. Alain Moreau's study of children with severe Scoliosis found that 2/3rds didn't have a single relative with spinal deformities. That's consistent with the Dutch twin study.

    13% is a low concordance rate but to be honest even 50% would not be considered particularly high. Tuberculosis has an identical twin concordence rate of around 50% and it's an infectious disease caused entirely by bacteria.
    Last edited by Dingo; 04-25-2009 at 02:45 PM.

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    Video

    YouTube: Gold fish with Scoliosis

    I'm not sure if this is Scoliosis but it could be. One of the commenters mentioned Whirling Disease. Either way it's probably a parasite because in fish both Scoliosis and Whirling Disease are caused by parasites.
    Last edited by Dingo; 04-25-2009 at 02:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    Pooka1

    The Dutch twin study was credible because it used a large, representative sample from a twin registry. Work like that makes small studies with questionable samples obsolete.
    Not if they are relying on self-reporting for identical versus fraternal. I can tell you from experience the number of identical twin pairs will be EXTREMELY underestimated and therefore both groups will have misindentified individuals.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

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    Pooka1

    I have no obvious reason to think that the Dutch researchers made mistakes but it's always possible.

    For arguments sake let's say they misidentified some fraternal and identical twins.

    Identical twins were 13% concordant
    Fraternal twins were 0% concordant

    No matter how those numbers shift between the two groups this study suggests that in most cases heredity plays very little role in Scoliosis.
    Last edited by Dingo; 04-26-2009 at 07:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    Pooka1

    I have no obvious reason to think that the Dutch researchers made mistakes but it's always possible.

    For arguments sake let's say they misidentified some fraternal and identical twins.

    Identical twins were 13% concordant
    Fraternal twins were 0% concordant

    No matter how those numbers shift between the two groups this study suggests that heredity plays very little role in Scoliosis.
    Yes I see that but what is their explanation for why they have such outlier results? There is some radically different point in their methodology vice all the other reports.

    Can you think of some way that all the other reports coincidentally arrived at an erroneously high concordance? The burden is on the outlier report even though the other reports may have had few subjects because they all generally agree).

    For example, they are relying on self reporting for the incidence of scoliosis, no? If true, is that really adequate? I can see how it would result in extreme under-reporting.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

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    And another thing... if it is environment/parasites and not genes then why the zero concordance between fraternal twins? Twins generally do the same thing at the same time for the first several years of their life in my experience.

    Zero concordance makes no sense.

    The likelihood is extremely high that there is some methodological problem in that paper.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    Pooka1

    I have no obvious reason to think that the Dutch researchers made mistakes but it's always possible.
    Nobody has any reason to think the bulk of the researchers producing all these articles made mistakes. And yet a majority of published research results are false.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

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    We need another study

    Pooka1

    Yes I see that but what is their explanation for why they have such outlier results? There is some radically different point in their methodology vice all the other reports.

    What we need is another large, twin registry study from another country. Who knows, this research might be in process right now.

    And another thing... if it is environment/parasites and not genes then why the zero concordance between fraternal twins?

    There might be 100 reasons for this. I'm not really sure.
    Last edited by Dingo; 04-26-2009 at 08:17 PM.

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    one note on the study

    Pooka1

    There are probably a lot of adults walking around with undiagnosed 10 to 20 degree curves. But you can safely bet that most people with a 30 degree curve or greater are aware of it.

    My guess is that people with moderate to severe Scoliosis made up the bulk of the respondents in the Dutch study. I would also guess that this group suffers from the strongest genetic contribution to the disease.

    (time warp: this is a response to your next post)
    Last edited by Dingo; 04-26-2009 at 08:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    Pooka1

    Yes I see that but what is their explanation for why they have such outlier results? There is some radically different point in their methodology vice all the other reports.

    What we need is another large, twin registry study from another country. Who knows, this research might be in process right now.

    And another thing... if it is environment/parasites and not genes then why the zero concordance between fraternal twins?

    There might be 100 reasons for this. I'm not really sure.
    Here's a big red flag about these results...

    RESULTS: A subgroup of 220 subjects considered to have AIS was identified, thus giving a prevalence of 1.05%.

    This is one half to one third of the incidence in the general population as I understand it and is certainly an artifact of the self reporting. As with my identical twins, one was an obvious surgical candidate and the other's case can scarcely be noticed except by those who know what to look for. I suggest the incidence of scoliosis in both twins, even identical pairs, in the twin study is highly under-reported (due to lay self-reporting) and this skews the results away from the bulk of those in the rest of the literature.

    Just a thought. An explanation is required.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    Pooka1

    There are probably a lot of adults walking around with undiagnosed 10 to 20 degree curves. But you can safely bet that most people with a 30 degree curve or greater are aware of it.
    Completely disagree. My one daughter's scoliosis was unnoticeable and had no symptoms at ~ 30* (because of lack of rotation).

    My guess is that people with moderate to severe Scoliosis made up the bulk of the respondents in the Dutch study.
    Yes and people with moderate to severe scoliosis are the minority. That backs up their low incidence compared to the widely accepted figure of 2-3% IIRC.

    If they had bone fide medical case histories I bet the concordance would approach that or the other published studies.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

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