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Thread: Can you see progression?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
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    14

    Can you see progression?

    Hi-
    My 7yo dd has jis. Curve initially was only 11, then 15, 19 and at last visit 23. It is right thoracic. Those films were all about 4 mos apart. Anyway, next appt is in 2mos (which will be about 6mos from the last one.) I have been fairly calm but now am getting paranoid again and keep looking at her back. It looks good to me, but then it always seems to look the same to me

    My question is this-to anyone who has had a child progress- have you been able to see the progression just by watching, or have you thought things were fine only to find that the x- ray showed progression? Just trying to buy myself a little sanity as this appt draws near... Any thoughts would be appreciated!

    Lisa

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
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    299
    Hi Lisa,

    I think you really can't eyeball small progressions accurately. I know I've read posts from folks on here who were SURE their kids had progressed only to find at the next x-ray that they hadn't. But the days/weeks leading up to x-rays can be nailbiting, I know. We've got our next one coming up in 3 weeks and I'm already thinking about it. If it looks good to you, then think it's good. For me, I try not to look at my daughter's back too much, partly so as to not drive myself crazy, and partly so as to not broadcast my concern about it to her. She doesn't worry about it and I don't want her to.

    Hang in there and you'll have your answer soon. I hope it's good news for you!
    mamandcrm

    G diagnosed 6/08 at almost 7 with 25*
    Providence night brace, increased to 35*
    Rigo-Cheneau brace full-time 12/08-4/10
    14* at 10/09 OOB x-ray
    11* at 4/10 OOB x-ray
    Wearing R-C part-time since 4/10
    latest OOB xray 5/14 13*
    currently going on 13 yrs old

    I no longer participate in this forum though I will update signature from time to time with status

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    299
    And I suppose I should answer your question--did I see my daughter progress? No, but I didn't look for it.
    mamandcrm

    G diagnosed 6/08 at almost 7 with 25*
    Providence night brace, increased to 35*
    Rigo-Cheneau brace full-time 12/08-4/10
    14* at 10/09 OOB x-ray
    11* at 4/10 OOB x-ray
    Wearing R-C part-time since 4/10
    latest OOB xray 5/14 13*
    currently going on 13 yrs old

    I no longer participate in this forum though I will update signature from time to time with status

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    369
    We have a re check coming next week. I start sweating about 3 weeks ahead of time. I have in the past thought I have seen progression but it turns out to be fine. Infact the other night I was looking and thought I saw her curve again only to have her bend again and now I am not sure. The doctor really loosened her brace last time so we did not over correct and that makes me nervous. My daughter is getting a new brace this visit, we are looking forward to a nice, new CLEAN brace.
    from CT, USA
    6 year old daughter diagnosed 7/06 33* T9

    Spinecor 8/06 - 8/2012
    8/06 11* 3/07 5*-8/07 8*-2/08 3*
    10/08 1* 4/09 Still holding @ 1*
    10/09 11* OOB 4/10 Negative 6*
    10/2011 Neg.11* IB 11yrs old 0 rotation
    4/2012 12* OOB 0 rotation
    8/2012 18* OOB for 2 weeks. TSLO night time
    2/2013 8* OOB 3 days TSLO nightime
    3/2014 8* Out of Brace permanently

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    494
    Lisa,
    From your last post I know you are a doctor. I am guessing we will all be interested to see what you ultimately decide to do, be it VBS, Spinecor, TSLO, or watch and wait (or, <gulp>, some kind of excercise based program).
    I think it would be really hard to eyeball a 4 degree change in curve. Perhaps if you had a series of photographs taken during a forward bending test you might be able to discern the gradual progressive change your daughter is experiencing. But as a parent, I would have to think that fears and imaginings would overpower any real ability to see it one way or the other.
    I thought you might be interested in the attached figure from Sanders 2007 in JBJS. It shows the curve history of 24 girls. A bit tough to read, and I dont know the Lenke classification of a right thoracic. Basically it shows that some increase to surgical levels, and some dont, which I am sure you already know - it's just nice to see some real data.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    14
    Thanks everyone.

    I know that I need to stop looking at it because I will most likely give her a complex...

    This appt worries me more because if it is above 25 degrees I will feel compelled to do something. I'm on ortho #3 who will brace, or do VBS. I am very much in support of all of the parents and kids that are currently bracing. I just cannot wrap myself around placing her in a hard orthotic 23 hours a day for 8-9 years, as was suggested by ortho #2. I have read a myriad of studies on bracing, all of them fairly flawed, but I think that it probably does work, especially in small curves. This sounds terrible, but I'm not sure it's worth it even if it does work. That's my opinion as a Mom, of course, not as a doc.

    In medicine there is not a lot of thinking outside of the box. Most doctors do what they believe is right, but there is an intrinsic bias that is based on training and not necessarily supported by fact. Our ortho #2 that wanted to brace at 19 degrees (due to a >5 degree progression), was a nice guy, and a good surgeon by reputation, but didn't seem to understand why I thought 9 years in a TLSO was extreme.

    Oh well, thanks for letting me vent!

    Lisa

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    299
    Hi Lisa,

    I know it's hard. You are right at the point where the next news you get may be the news you've been hoping you never get. But then again, maybe she won't have progressed. Have any of your orthos suggested having her wear a night-time brace? We are not exactly the poster family for that as it completely didn't work for our daugther but I think it does work for a good deal of kids and she never had any problem with it, either physically or emotionally. It's what we hope to get back to at this point. VBS seems like a good option for you too, given your daughter's age and small curve. We actually have her on the schedule for it this summer, and plan to go forward with it if we do not get any encouraging news at the next x-ray visit. At best, that probably will still leave her with a night-time brace but we'll take it!

    Good luck with your decision-making.

    Chris
    Last edited by mamandcrm; 06-08-2009 at 04:25 PM.
    mamandcrm

    G diagnosed 6/08 at almost 7 with 25*
    Providence night brace, increased to 35*
    Rigo-Cheneau brace full-time 12/08-4/10
    14* at 10/09 OOB x-ray
    11* at 4/10 OOB x-ray
    Wearing R-C part-time since 4/10
    latest OOB xray 5/14 13*
    currently going on 13 yrs old

    I no longer participate in this forum though I will update signature from time to time with status

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    778
    Quote Originally Posted by concerned dad View Post
    I think it would be really hard to eyeball a 4 degree change in curve.
    I have to disagree. There were times I could see change in my daughter's back and x-ray always confirmed what I already knew. This was especially true when we were dealing with her junctional Kyphosis.

    Mary Lou
    Mom to Jamie age 21-diagnosed at age 12-spinal fusion 12/7/2004-fused from T3-L2; and Tracy age 19, mild Scoliosis-diagnosed at age 18.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    140
    I have to agree with Mary Lou. I was always able to see my son's progression although his progression was usually about 10+ degrees. So if it were just a small increase maybe not so obvious. It was probably more the rib humps that became noticably bigger. And the formation of a lower rib hump
    mom of Patrick, age 15 at time of surgery
    diagnosed July 2006 curves T58 L 38

    Nov. 2006 curves T72 L38
    also lordoscoliosis

    feb.2007 curves T79 L43

    Surgery May 16 2007
    fused T4 to L1

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    14

    question answered, kind of...

    Well, for anyone out there with a morbid curiousity--- curve was stable, same as last time (23-24). So...either you really can see progression and my assessment is accurate, or you can't see a small progression anyway and I just got lucky. Personally, just relieved to have dodged the bullet this time. Plan is to completely avoid looking at her back for the next 6 months.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    ny
    Posts
    1,809
    Great news!! Stable is always good news as far as I'm concerned.

    As I was reading this thread from the beginning, I was able to relate to everything that was posted - the knot in the stomach a few weeks before an x-ray or checkup (a friend of mine even has a name for it - the "dreaded x-ray day feeling"), wanting to look at my son's back but stopping myself so as (a) not to drive myself insane; and (b) not to make him self-conscious or worried; the feeling when everything is stable that I can breathe for another 4-6 months, etc.

    At least we can all understand what each other goes through.

    Again, I'm VERY happy for you.
    mariaf305@yahoo.com
    Mom to David, age 17, braced June 2000 to March 2004
    Vertebral Body Stapling 3/10/04 for 40 degree curve (currently mid 20's)

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/ScoliosisTethering/

    http://pediatricspinefoundation.org/

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    1,161
    Hi mmm2001,

    I am glad you got news today that your dd's curve is stable, stable is good! We are in a similar position to yours although my dd's curve has never shown any true progression. I hate having to live from appt to appt, I wish I had the crystal ball to see the final outcome, but I can't seem to find it...

    Thanks for sharing your news,
    Gayle, age 50
    Oct 2010 fusion T8-sacrum w/ pelvic fixation
    Feb 2012 lumbar revision for broken rods @ L2-3-4
    Sept 2015 major lumbar A/P revision for broken rods @ L5-S1


    mom of Leah, 15 y/o, Diagnosed '08 with 26* T JIS (age 6)
    2010 VBS Dr Luhmann Shriners St Louis
    2017 curves stable/skeletely mature

    also mom of Torrey, 12 y/o son, 16* T, stable

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    8,903
    I have trouble eyeballing progression as opposed to rotation.

    My formerly braced daughter's curve defies prediction by me because there is almost no rotation. It's a matter of is her torso touching one arm more than the other MORESO than a few months ago. I can't eyeball that.

    With my fused daughter, she was twisting up like a pretzel. People who had no clue about what scoliosis is saw it.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  14. #14
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    84
    Hi I hope DD is doing well

    My curves were originally barely anything, my doctor let me decide whether I wanted a brace or not, I said no. I went to another doctor alter on (a child specialist) and she said I was fine. Then I was recentley at my family doctor and she felt my back and wanted me to go abck and get another X-ray. Over that time they thought I would be fine I actually got worse. I have a mid-thoratic curve and a Lumbar curve. I ahve heard Thoratic curves progress faster than Lumbar curves. I would suggest maybe looking into one of the newer braces like TriaC, Spinecor or maybe even the Charleston bending brace. Talk to her doctor about it she is 7 and has much more time for it to progress. I'm done growing and don't have to worry as much.

    Good luck to you and DD, everything should be fine there are so many fantastic treatments out there. It is good you found it her curve now, the earlier the better.
    Good Luck I'll be thinking about you two. Let us know how everything works out.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    84
    Oh I forgot to include a lot of times you can feel it. I agree with Mary Lou a 4 degree difference or any small increase like that can be noticed. You can't always tell by just looking at the person, but the person with the curve can feel it. Like when my curves got worse I knew it, I could feel it when I run my fingers down my spine and even just the feel of my spine like you can feel the pressure the curves put on you sometimes. But I can also see where Concerned Dad is coming from as a parent just looking at your child it is harder to tell and sometimes you can't tell by just looking at them.

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