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Thread: Recent study on Melatonin and Scoliosis

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    PNUTTRO

    Another thing is that it wouldn't technically have to offer increased susceptability to "factor X". It might only offer increased susceptability to the disease itself.

    For instance Gene A does a great job until flu virus takes down Subsystem B. When Subsystem B goes down the protein that Gene A codes for becomes a liability and the victim dies of Disease C.

    There is nothing wrong with Gene A, nor does it increase susceptability to flu virus. But if Subsytem B happens to go down the body fails. Nearly everyone who dies of Disease C also happens to have Gene A, but the actual problem is flu virus.

    The other day I was reading about an eye disorder that worked just like that. Nearly every person with the disorder had a particular gene but most people with the gene didn't get the disorder. I can't remember what scientists thought triggered the disorder but it was something mundane.
    words. words. words. . .

    You are thinking of the sickle cell/malaria model. The benefit/cost ratio.

    Penetrance--the genetic concept where a person inherits a genetic predisposition, yet the symptoms vary or the percentage of persons who exhibit symptoms.

    I was upset about your comments because you said that there is no reason for a gene to be transmitted unless it has a biological benefit. That is neither true nor does it fit with the natural selection model.

    The genes still transmit. There are exactly two reason why that wouldn't happen. One you mentioned previously, the individual dies (not a scoliosis problem). Second, the genetic variation makes the individual sterile, usually associated with mental retardation. NOT a scoliosis problem.

    Genetic predisposition to scoliosis exists and are transmitted in a Mendelian fashion. The explanation is the the biology is complex and we have no clue what causes scoliosis.

    This is why I am sooooooooooo against genetic testing for anything for which the genetic test does not give any hope of alternative treatments.

    There are many examples of how people struggle to get a diagnosis and finally a genetic test says that you have disorder "suckstobeyou". "Oh, and by the way, there is no cure and no treatment, have a nice day."


    I have to thank Karen for bringing up her family history. This probably a good example of a family with a strong genetic inheritance for scoliosis. And when you told her that her family could not possibly have inherited a "scoliosis gene", I was VERY upset because you, in fact, are wrong. Karen is right.

    p

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Look, you, clearly are interested in facts.

    Almost half the US populace is specifically NOT interested in facts. Certain things are too factual for them.

    They live in a demon haunted world.

    It is a FACT that Syrian hamsters have no limit when it comes to alcohol consumption.
    If I keep my hamster drunk will it quit biting?

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNUTTRO View Post
    If I keep my hamster drunk will it quit biting?
    BWAAAAAH!

    It may, but then again, who can *afford* to keep those lushy lil' suckers drunk?

    Your luck, you'd end up with the hamster who just keeps drinking and never passes out ... perpetually embarrassing you around friends dancing on the bar, doing a little hamster striptease or even worse, joyriding in your car every time you turn your back.

    Playing with fire, sister. Playing with fire.
    Fusion is NOT the end of the world.
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  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNUTTRO View Post
    This is why I am sooooooooooo against genetic testing for anything for which the genetic test does not give any hope of alternative treatments.

    There are many examples of how people struggle to get a diagnosis and finally a genetic test says that you have disorder "suckstobeyou". "Oh, and by the way, there is no cure and no treatment, have a nice day."
    My thoughts on the topic exactly, not to mention if your insurance company gets wind you have - or will develop - "suckstobeyou", your already sucky existence is likely to become a LOT "suckier".

    At what point does confirmation from genetic testing (even if you haven't sought treatment because A) you haven't displayed symptoms, and B) there IS no treatment) knock your disease into the pre-existing condition category?

    I've read that's a fear of many who consider genetic testing for familial conditions.

    (re: disorder "suckstobeyou" ... not a funy topic at ALL, but *that* was classic ;-)

    Pam
    Fusion is NOT the end of the world.
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  5. #50
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    Nope

    PNUTTRO

    I was VERY upset because you, in fact, are wrong. Karen is right.

    Karen's family might share a very rare mutation or incredibly unlucky combination of genes. That is possible. But the odds are always highest for environmental damage plus some type of genetic susceptability.

    Leprosy can and does hit specific families very hard. MZ concordance is off the charts high (60% to 80%). That doesn't make it a genetic disorder. It's a bacterial infection that is easily cured with antibiotics.

    If you want to believe that 2% of children around the world have a curved spine because of heredity, and natural selection is powerless to stop it that's your prerogative. Let's wait for the evidence to get sorted out over the next 10 years. I believe that in almost all cases Scoliosis is due to environmental damage of some type. My opinion is based on the simplest concepts of math and natural selection. When scientists determine that most types of Scoliosis are triggered by damage, and they will, please remember this debate.
    Last edited by Dingo; 04-07-2009 at 10:51 AM.

  6. #51
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    Helping your child???

    Dingo:

    What's your profession and how are you helping your son by finding causes???

    When a parent is blindsided by a child's illness it's natural to want to find out "why". There is the urge to "control" the child's disease by all sorts of methods or even find the first "cure". If the current treatment options seem distasteful then there is a wild search for "alternatives" and sometimes time, money and energy is wasted.

    My parents had me: hanging from bars, not carrying books and visiting a chiropractor for 9 months in the 6th grade. My recommended surgery was delayed and my curve increases dramatically in a few months ---with resultant increased deformity.
    Original scoliosis surgery 1956 T-4 to L-2 ~100 degree thoracic (triple)curves at age 14. NO hardware-lost correction.
    Anterior/posterior revision T-4 to Sacrum in 2002, age 60, by Dr. Boachie-Adjei @Hospital for Special Surgery, NY = 50% correction

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    Karen's family might share a very rare mutation or incredibly unlucky combination of genes. That is possible. But the odds are always highest for environmental damage plus some type of genetic susceptability.
    It may come as a shock to you, but she wasn't talking about you or any other people. She was talking about her own family and her concerns about a genetic component. (Karen, please, correct me if I am wrong.) And I think she has a strong argument for a rare situation. Geneticist love finding that one family that gives the biggest clue. Maybe her family is it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    Leprosy can and does hit specific families very hard. MZ concordance is off the charts high (60% to 80%). That doesn't make it a genetic disorder. It's a bacterial infection that is easily cured with antibiotics.
    I am pretty sure that leprosy has a pretty good concordance in unrelated individuals too. But its a stupid argument anyway because scoliosis isn't cured by antibiotics. You can support that clinical trial.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    If you want to believe that 2% of children around the world have a curved spine because of heredity, and natural selection is powerless to stop it that's your prerogative. Let's wait for the evidence to get sorted out over the next 10 years. I believe that in almost all cases Scoliosis is due to environmental damage of some type. My opinion is based on the simplest concepts of math and natural selection. When scientists determine that most types of Scoliosis are triggered by damage, and they will, please remember this debate.
    Can you show your math? for extra credit.


    Karen. Thanks for the article about Dr. Moreau's blood test for cAMP. Unfortunately, it's in German and looks more like a brochure to recruit patients than actually demonstrating supporting data for the test. I could be wrong--my German sucks.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by txmarinemom View Post
    Your luck, you'd end up with the hamster who just keeps drinking and never passes out ... perpetually embarrassing you around friends dancing on the bar, doing a little hamster striptease or even worse, joyriding in your car every time you turn your back.

    Playing with fire, sister. Playing with fire.

    With my luck, I would end up with a mean drunk and he would just bit more often and start throwing stuff at me when I walked by the cage.

    Did you notice all the editing on this thread?
    Last edited by PNUTTRO; 04-07-2009 at 01:24 PM. Reason: Oh the irony.

  9. #54
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    No need to get personal

    PNUTTRO

    I am pretty sure that leprosy has a pretty good concordance in unrelated individuals too.

    I have no doubt that you're smart but you are substantially wrong.

    GNXP: Why those studying humans must know population genetics.

    Here are some infectuous diseases and their twin concordance rates.
    MZ = identical twins
    DZ = fraternal twins

    Measles - MZ = 97, DZ = 94
    Scarlet Fever - MZ = 55, DZ = 47
    Pneumonia MZ = 32, DZ = 18
    Tuberculosis - MZ = 53, DZ = 21
    Leprosy - MZ = 59, DZ = 10


    Gene that makes people vulnerable to leprosy discovered

    Heredity plays a substantial role in infectuous disease and disease processes. Even if an entire family has Leprosy it doesn't imply that it's being passed through genes. There are usually better explanations particularly in regard to diseases that affect children.
    Last edited by Dingo; 04-07-2009 at 02:12 PM.

  10. #55
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    I think I just won a bet.
    Last edited by PNUTTRO; 04-07-2009 at 02:45 PM. Reason: removed a name. I don't want to involve others.

  11. #56
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    Lets run the numbers

    Hereditary deafness hits about 1 kid in 2,500

    If hereditary Scoliosis hits 10X as many kids (which I highly doubt) that's 1 kid in 250

    Scoliosis hits 1 kid in 50.

    That makes it easy for me to make this prediction.

    No more than 20% of Scoliosis cases in children will be triggered by heredity. Realistically it's probably no more than 2% but I'm being generous. The rest are triggered by environmental damage of some type.

    Do you disagree and think Scoliosis is caused by heredity?

    I guess we'll have to watch the headlines over the next decade and see who is right.

  12. #57
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    Causes

    Karen Ocker

    how are you helping your son by finding causes???

    I'm not looking for a cause, nor do I have the ability to look because I'm not a scientist in the field. However anyone with a simple knowledge of mathematics and biology can see that in all likelihood Scoliosis is not typically the result of heredity. That's my only point on that subject.

  13. #58
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    Scoliosis in the womb

    Karen Ocker

    How about scoliosis caused by the way the child is positioned in the womb.

    If the mother and child were healthy in every other way I'd consider that natural, healthy biology gone awry and include it in the 20% genetic column.

    However if the curve was small and corrects to under 10 degrees on it's own it might just be part of the system and not a disorder.
    Last edited by Dingo; 04-07-2009 at 05:22 PM.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    [If the mother and child were healthy in every other way I'd consider that natural, healthy biology gone awry and include it in the 20% genetic column.
    Of ~course you would.

    Enlighten the rest of us dolts with the definitive expert stand on genetic predisposition to superiority complexes and narcissism, please?

    Can it be cured by antibiotics? Let me know and I'll start passing the hat.
    Last edited by txmarinemom; 04-07-2009 at 11:56 PM. Reason: forgot to close the BBCode [quote] tag ... unlike why some others edit - LMAO ...
    Fusion is NOT the end of the world.
    AIDS Walk Houston 2008 5K @ 33 days post op!


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  15. #60
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    Pam, I don’t see how you can read superiority complexes and narcissism into Dingo’s argument. Self confident and respectful, yes. I find the discussion to be interesting. We are fortunate to have two articulate posters expressing opposing viewpoints on a relevant topic. Ad hominem attacks really detract from the civility.

    I don’t see why editing a post should be something to laugh at, I do it all the time (<cough> there are occasions where you might consider it yourself).

    PNUTTRO’s fictitious disease suckstobeyou gave me a hearty laugh. Very creative.

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