Recent study on Melatonin and Scoliosis

[concerned dad]

It took me a few hours plus a basic understanding of natural selection, mathematics and process of elimination.

Well, I hope you dont think me an idiot if it takes me a bit longer

Here is a simple way to think of a susceptability gene vs. a disease gene.

I guess I am looking for a yes or no on this,

If there is a susceptability gene for something, does that mean that something is "genetic"?

I would have thought .... Yes.
But I am guessing both Dingo and PNUTTRO will say ....No.

[Dingo]

Susceptability genes

concerned dad

I should mention that not only can a susceptability gene raise the odds that someone will have an illness it can also make someone more susceptible to the disease process.

For instance people with Gene A don't have Scoliosis at a higher rate than any other group. However if someone with Gene A ends up with Scoliosis their curve will progress very fast. Natural selection can't get rid of Gene A because most children don't get Scoliosis and it offers some other significant benefit to healthy children.

That's the kind of gene that the Axial genetic test is looking for. Every person could take the test to determine their chance of curve progression but obviously the answer only matters if someone has Scoliosis.

[Dingo]

not genetic

concerned dad

Whoops, I didn't see you had just posted while I was posting.

If there is a susceptability gene for something, does that mean that something is "genetic"?

No. If we looked long enough we'd find susceptability genes for every single physical problem that affects mankind. That includes everything from Psoriasis to gunshot wounds. Genes matter for everything. But that doesn't make every disorder, illness or accident a "genetic" disease.

Flu is still caused by Flu virus whether you have genes that are good or bad at stopping it.

In addition if Flu virus invades your body and causes your immune system to go haywire on itself that is not a genetic disease.

[concerned dad]

OK, so i googled the question
"When is a disease considered genetic" and found the following which would seem to contradict what you say.

A genetic disorder, or genetic disease, is a disease caused by abnormal expression of one or more genes in a person causing a clinical phenotype. <snip - they talk about Single gene disorders which I would guess is your definition of a genetic disease, but then they go on to discuss, emphasis added is mine > Genetic disorders may also be complex, multifactorial or polygenic, this means that they are likely associated with the effects of multiple genes in combination with lifestyle and environmental factors. Multifactoral disorders include heart disease and diabetes. Although complex disorders often cluster in families, they do not have a clear-cut pattern of inheritance. This makes it difficult to determine a person’s risk of inheriting or passing on these disorders. Complex disorders are also difficult to study and treat because the specific factors that cause most of these disorders have not yet been identified.

So by the definition used by this source scoliosis would be considered a "genetic disease". Maybe a complex genetic disease, a multifactorial genetic disease or a polygenic genetic disease.

So, when you and P say that scoliosis is not a genetic disease, perhaps it would be better to say "Scolioisis is not a Single Gene genetic disease".

[concerned dad]

I couldnt help myself, I had to add this one too. Especially for Sharon (you never know what youre going to find when you google something)

Genetic diseases could be a single gene disorder or they may be multi-factorial involving more than one gene even other non-genetic environmental factors. Single-gene disorders could be autosomal or X-linked. As part of the parity principle of human creation, each gene is in pairs one from each parent with the possibility of a dominant or recessive combination. Mutations and chromosomal damage can alter the body’s growth or metabolic processes resulting in disease. These operate through disturbances of protein and enzyme synthesis or function. Molecular diagnosis and gene therapy are growing fields and will give rise to a different understanding of pathology. <edit - on second thought, I wouldnt want to offend anyone, if you didnt suscribe to the thread, you have no idea what I'm talking about>.

[Dingo]

By that definition

multiple genes in combination with lifestyle and environmental factors

By that definition every disease could be considered a genetic disease.

Lifestyle might mean smoking

Environmental might mean radiation exposure

If you had anti-cigarette or anti-radiation genes you wouldn't get cancer from these carcinogens. So I guess looked at from that angle every disease could be considered a type of genetic illness.

[concerned dad]

I guess what we need is a definition

How about one from the Human Genome Project

Once again, I think it comes down to semantics. I think Karen and I adopted the multifactorial definition (as for me, I did it without knowing the difference), Dingo focused on the single gene thing and P got upset because she knew it wasnt as simple as all that. (guessing on the "she" thing P because Pam called you "sister", correct me if I am wrong)

But Dingo has a good point, it is a pretty broad definition. And I suppose, the math and science involved to determine that scoliosis is NOT a single gene genetic disorder (nor a Mendelian Genetic disorder, nor a monogenic disorder) is simple.

I think I learned something today.

[Dingo]

Human Genome Project

Concerned Dad

From the human genome project definition of genetic disease

Examples include heart disease, high blood pressure, Alzheimer’s disease, arthritis, diabetes, cancer, and obesity.

What they are saying is that any disorder that affects humans is a genetic disease.

I wonder why the HUMAN GENOME PROJECT would define it that way?

Somebody needs to ask the Human Genome Project which diseases aren't genetic and why.

[Dingo]

Just checked wiki

I just checked the genetic disorder page on Wiki

I see Angelman's, Cystic Fibrosis, Color Blindness and Haemophilia.... but no mention of arthritis or heart disease.

[Dingo]

off the top of my head

Genetic diseases could be a single gene disorder or they may be multi-factorial involving more than one gene even other non-genetic environmental factors.

Off the top of my head the only diseases I can think of that aren't multi-factorial are genetic diseases. Sickle Cell is the result of genetic programming pure and simple. Color Blindness and Haemophilia are the same. If you've got the genes you've got the disorder.

Every other type of disease is multi-factorial. Genes play a part in everything.

[concerned dad]

You didnt look far enough.
Genetic disorders from Wiki (maybe not the best source)

Genetic disorders may also be complex, multifactorial or polygenic, this means that they are likely associated with the effects of multiple genes in combination with lifestyle and environmental factors. Multifactoral disorders include heart disease and diabetes

[Pooka1]

I couldnt help myself, I had to add this one too. Especially for Sharon (you never know what youre going to find when you google something)

(snip quoted material that I cold barely follow)

Hey CD, not sure what about this material is meant for me... maybe the stuff you edited out?

I noted the use of the word "creation" which is so larded down with nonsense that I'm guessing this is from a non-scientific site?

[Dingo]

Multifactorial genetic disease

Using that broad standard even respriratory infections could be considered multi-factorial genetic diseases.

A) A man has a flu susceptability gene
B) This man is under stress at work which lowers his immune system
C) He runs into the flu virus at a restaraunt

Due to this combination of genes, environment and circumstance he catches the flu and is sick for 1 week.

[Dingo]

Stress disorders

I think I'm going to start a Human Stress Disorder Project and apply for some government funding.

Here is my new definition:

Stress Disorder
A stress disorder is a disease caused by the negative effects of stress on the body. Stress disorders can be complex and multifactorial. This means they can be associated with multiple stressors in combination with genetic, lifestyle and environmental factors. Common stress disorders include heart disease, depression and diabetes.

[concerned dad]

Using that broad standard even respriratory infections could be considered multi-factorial genetic diseases.

A) A man has a flu susceptability gene
B) This man is under stress at work which lowers his immune system
C) He runs into the flu virus at a restaraunt

Due to this combination of genes, environment and circumstance he catches the flu and is sick for 1 week.

I suppose, but I was really hoping you would use the gunshot wound susceptability gene as an example


My point is, it boils down to defining the term.
We didnt make it up (maybe the HGP did)
I googled "multifactorial genetic disease" and got 731 hits.

Do you agree that Scoliosis is likely a multi-factorial genetic disease?
I suppose you would.
And I recognize that is NOT what you (or P) meant when you both said it was not a genetic disease.