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Thread: Recent study on Melatonin and Scoliosis

  1. #16
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    No Chiro for my child

    Karen Ocker

    I don't plan on taking my child to either a Chiropractor or a witch doctor. They are roughly the same thing.

    The Japanese study relates to Adolescent Scoliosis.

    This study only tested Adolescents but it's findings and the blood test that came from it also apply to Juvenile Scoliosis. I'm not sure about infantile.
    Last edited by Dingo; 04-02-2009 at 12:38 AM.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen Ocker View Post
    I haven't seen anything to suggest--a good study- or better- a meta analysis suggesting scoliosis is more common in one latitude than another.

    Karen, I'm pretty sure that WAS a meta-analysis that Dingo linked to.

    20 peer-reviewed published papers reporting adolescent idiopathic scoliosis prevalence and 33 peer-reviewed papers reporting age at menarche in normal girls from most geographic areas of the northern hemisphere were retrieved from the literature. The geographic latitude of each centre where a particular study was originated was documented. The statistical analysis included regression of the adolescent idiopathic scoliosis prevalence and age at menarche by latitude.

    I dont know that I "buy it" (I'm hesitant to "buy" anything lately) but it is interesting. And it looks like they excluded other forms of scoliosis (as best they could) and just considered AIS. As you point out, otherwise it would be pretty senseless.

    Now to talk to my tax advisor and see if there is a medical deduction for moving to Florida.

  3. #18
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    Floriday

    concerned dad

    Now to talk to my tax advisor and see if there is a medical deduction for moving to Florida.

    I live in Phoenix, Arizona which is one of the sunniest cities in America. My 5 year old son has a mild 12 degree curve. We suspect that his Scoliosis began when he was 3 or even earlier. The back grows faster from birth to age 5 than at any other time. I don't know if all of the extra sun helped but judging from that Meta analysis it certainly might have kept his symptoms mild.

    I should also say that since birth he had a night light, hall light and street light coming through his window. When he was diagnosed with Scoliosis I began scouring the Internet for an answer. It took me about 2 months to figure out that Melatonin may have something to do with his problem. We "blacked out" his room and his sleep improved immediately. He used to sleep very shallow and would wake up all the time. Not any more. That was about 4 months ago and although I don't know if it helped his Scoliosis it certainly helped his sleep.
    Last edited by Dingo; 04-02-2009 at 11:02 AM.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    The Japanese study finally set a measurable standard that can be easily checked.
    I respectfully disagree. I see the Japanese study as having some glaring omissions and ambiguities regarding experimental design.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    If increased Melatonin and/or Melatonin supplementation has an impact on curve progression a treatment for Scoliosis may be right around the corner. The Scoliosis blood test will be out in 2009/2010. A simple blood test given several times a year will let doctors know when Calmodulin levels are spiking. Melatonin (assuming it helps) combined with effective bracing should improve outcomes dramatically.
    Regarding this article. You say a blood test is imminent, but the reference is from 2006. Do you have inside information?

    How can a blood sample of lymphocytes and detection of a second messenger (which is involved in numerous cellular pathways) be considered a measure of melatonin metabolism in [insert scoliosis related tissue here]?

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNUTTRO View Post
    (snip)
    [...] detection of a second messenger (which is involved in numerous cellular pathways) [...]
    THANK YOU!

    cAMP is involved in practically everything and its mother last I knew.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  6. #21
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    Scoliosis blood test

    PNUTTRO

    I respectfully disagree. I see the Japanese study as having some glaring omissions and ambiguities regarding experimental design.

    Nobody has to copy the Japanese study. Give Melatonin supplements to 100 children with mild Scoliosis and check the rate of progression. If it's better than the control group the Japanese were onto something.

    Regarding this article. You say a blood test is imminent, but the reference is from 2006. Do you have inside information?

    Yes I have been in contact with the team. They hope to have FDA approval this year. Their goal is to have 4 operational sites in the US within a year or so. I'm not entirely sure but I believe these are testing labs. The actual blood tests can be taken anywhere in the US. I'm not technical so I don't know if I understood that part correctly. Their only fear is that the bad economy will slow commercialization of the test. In the meantime children with AIS or JIS can get their blood tested for free in Montreal.

    How can a blood sample of lymphocytes and detection of a second messenger (which is involved in numerous cellular pathways) be considered a measure of melatonin metabolism in [insert scoliosis related tissue here]?

    That question is 10 levels above my understanding of how the test works. I do know that Melatonin Signaling Dysfunction is key or closely related to the problem. But I don't know how they measure that with a blood test.
    Last edited by Dingo; 04-04-2009 at 12:41 AM.

  7. #22
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    My point is simply this. There is little data to support what Dr. Moreau is trying to do. The jury is still out about whether melatonin biology is important in scoliosis. There are various reports that are contradictory to what Dr. Moreau says. I am just trying to voice the dissension.

    Your previous posts give me the impression that you have seen exactly one doctor and you have taken his advice to be the gold standard. Which many will consider to be false or at least premature.

    Nobody knows what causes scoliosis. We don't even know if it is a problem with nerves, muscle, bone, connective tissue, or other cell types. Its a complex problem and one not easily solve thru molecular biology.

    I am not trying to dissuade you from trying everything possible to help your son, I just want you to take a more objective approach so that you don't have regrets later. Consider what you would do if you had a "progression blood test". What would you do if you know that the scoliosis would progress? Is that any different from what you would do if there was a chance that the scoliosis will progress?

    p

  8. #23
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    Evidence counter to Dr. Moreau?

    There is little data to support what Dr. Moreau is trying to do. The jury is still out about whether melatonin biology is important in scoliosis. There are various reports that are contradictory to what Dr. Moreau says. I am just trying to voice the dissension.

    I know that Melatonin has not been conclusively proven to reduce curve progression. It may or may not help. But as far as I know Dr. Moreau is not involved in that line of research.

    But I wasn't aware that there was strong counterevidence to Moreau's discovery of Melatonin Signaling Dysfunction in children with AIS. Every child in his sample had it. If the FDA approves his test this year as he expects it has to be more than a hypothesis.

    Consider what you would do if you had a "progression blood test". What would you do if you know that the scoliosis would progress? Is that any different from what you would do if there was a chance that the scoliosis will progress?

    In one sense you are right because either way I'd "black out" his room, ensure he had a good diet, sunlight, exercise etc. However if I knew that it would progress inspite of bracing I would think seriously about VBS. And if the surgeon knew how serious the case was I'd hope that he would take that into account. On the other hand if I knew that it might progress or might not I would try night bracing and hope for the best.

    Your previous posts give me the impression that you have seen exactly one doctor and you have taken his advice to be the gold standard.
    When asked my son's doctor told me that Scoliosis appeared to be a neurological disorder. But he never mentioned a word about Melatonin or blood tests or anything else. That was all from my own research.
    Last edited by Dingo; 04-04-2009 at 04:56 PM.

  9. #24
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    You're right-about meta analysis

    20 peer-reviewed published papers reporting adolescent idiopathic scoliosis prevalence and 33 peer-reviewed papers reporting age at menarche in normal girls from most geographic areas of the northern hemisphere were retrieved from the literature. The geographic latitude of each centre where a particular study was originated was documented
    Concerned Dad

    What about the Southern Hemisphere?
    Original scoliosis surgery 1956 T-4 to L-2 ~100 degree thoracic (triple)curves at age 14. NO hardware-lost correction.
    Anterior/posterior revision T-4 to Sacrum in 2002, age 60, by Dr. Boachie-Adjei @Hospital for Special Surgery, NY = 50% correction

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen Ocker View Post
    Concerned Dad

    What about the Southern Hemisphere?
    Darn good question.
    I really should buy a globe because I found a few suprises when trying to answer your question.
    the paper Dingo posted says;
    The regression curves of AIS prevalence and age at menarche by latitude are following a parallel decrement, especially in latitudes northern than 30, as it is shown in figures 1 and 2 respectively.

    So, I figured, there must be data south of 30 degrees South Latitude.

    The center of S Africa is only at 27 degrees S, and the center of Australia is at 29 S. I thought these areas where futher south than that.

    Anyway, I guess the answer to your question must relate to the huge disparancy between the population density of the N and S hemispheres especially between 30 and 60 degrees.
    here is a link to a map showing population density.

    and here is another link with the globe labelled with Latitude notes. Both links show a Robinson projection but the first (the one with population) doesnt even show 0-30S latitudes.

    But I suppose, if there were published data from say Perth, or New Zealand, it could serve as a test of their hypothesis. But what they really need is data from 60 degrees South Latitude. And there is no one living there.

  11. #26
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    I just thought of something. Since gene markers for scoliosis have been discovered, and since some populations intermarry and do not migrate great distances far, could that be attributed to scoliosis incidence?

    I'm thinking along the line of Tay-Sachs disease.
    Original scoliosis surgery 1956 T-4 to L-2 ~100 degree thoracic (triple)curves at age 14. NO hardware-lost correction.
    Anterior/posterior revision T-4 to Sacrum in 2002, age 60, by Dr. Boachie-Adjei @Hospital for Special Surgery, NY = 50% correction

  12. #27
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    Genetic markers

    Karen Ocker

    Since gene markers for scoliosis have been discovered, and since some populations intermarry and do not migrate great distances far, could that be attributed to scoliosis incidence?

    It is highly unlikely that Scoliosis is a genetic disorder. There are a lot of obvious reasons why a heritable Scoliosis gene could never spread to a significant portion of the population. Theory aside, a recent twin study found what theory suggested. PNUTTRO posted a recent study that found just 13% pairwise concordance for Scoliosis. That is extremely low.

    If any Scoliosis genes do exist they probably work something like the "flu" genes that Australian scientists recently discovered.

    Scientists pinpoint flu gene

    "Infectious disease experts in Australia have identified a mix of genes that make people eight times more likely to suffer for longer, and experience severe symptoms, once they fall ill."

    Flu is caused entirely by flu virus. But perhaps specific genes may make people more susceptible or make symptoms worse. The reason these genes exist at all is because they perform some other beneficial task.
    Last edited by Dingo; 04-06-2009 at 01:28 PM.

  13. #28
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    Recent research on genetic etiology

    Last edited by Karen Ocker; 04-06-2009 at 02:26 PM.
    Original scoliosis surgery 1956 T-4 to L-2 ~100 degree thoracic (triple)curves at age 14. NO hardware-lost correction.
    Anterior/posterior revision T-4 to Sacrum in 2002, age 60, by Dr. Boachie-Adjei @Hospital for Special Surgery, NY = 50% correction

  14. #29
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    Scoliosis in kids

    Original scoliosis surgery 1956 T-4 to L-2 ~100 degree thoracic (triple)curves at age 14. NO hardware-lost correction.
    Anterior/posterior revision T-4 to Sacrum in 2002, age 60, by Dr. Boachie-Adjei @Hospital for Special Surgery, NY = 50% correction

  15. #30
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    regarding melatonon receptors

    Original scoliosis surgery 1956 T-4 to L-2 ~100 degree thoracic (triple)curves at age 14. NO hardware-lost correction.
    Anterior/posterior revision T-4 to Sacrum in 2002, age 60, by Dr. Boachie-Adjei @Hospital for Special Surgery, NY = 50% correction

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