Clear Institute vs. Schroth Method

[Qikdraw]

I object to letting Pam leave.

Seconded!!

[mamamax]

There is long history of what has gone on in this thread throughout the entire forum. That is well evidenced fact. Word on the Street is that the NSF forum is too hostile for most folks seeking exchange of information regarding alternative treatments not involving surgery. Those in the Non Surgical Adult Forum who wish to share information regarding both traditional and alternative treatments not involving surgery - deserve their place to do so, as Joseph O'Brien has clearly stated.

Pooka1 - I find your comments regarding Joe's words quoted by you in post #31 of this thread (which were originally posted by Writer, as an excerpt from Joe's official statement on such things (in an effort to bring clarity to the situation) - offensive, and they leave me near beyond words. Joe's comment: and we need open communication for all in an environment that shows courtesy and respect for, and by, everyone.

Your response: That's what the astrologers, alchemists, and young earth creationists demand also and they are all wrong. A lid must be placed on counterfactual material.

How can you be so disrespectful to Joe, who has given us this forum and who has also given much self sacrifice in the effort to help all with this condition?

Those who think they have the right to come into the non-surgical section and disrupt an exchange of communication between those of us seeking to share information regarding both traditional and alternative treatments not involving surgery, in a forum specifically designed for such by the President and CEO of the NSF clearly are mistaken and do in fact, need to find another venue to satisfy their needs.

The history of the disrespect shown in this thread, and the official response to such disrespect, is found here:

Setting the Record Straight
posted by Joseph O'Brien, President & CEO NSF
http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8765

Excerpt:

10. As stated in the Welcome page, this Forum is intended to be a community center to give all patients and families an opportunity to give and receive vital information and support. While we may have common unity in the characteristics of our spinal deformity, our individual situation and experiences are unique and we need open communication for all in an environment that shows courtesy and respect for, and by, everyone.

11. Anyone unwilling or unable to abide by the spirit of item #10 is kindly asked to leave the Forum and find another venue to satisfy your needs.

[Pooka1]

Those in the Non Surgical Adult Forum who wish to share information regarding both traditional and alternative treatments not involving surgery - deserve their place to do so, as Joseph O'Brien has clearly stated.

The problem is not folks sharing alternative treatments. PT, Schroth, braces, etc. may very well help with pain. I believe the people who say these things help with pain.

The problem is making fact claims about PT, Schroth, braces decreasing curves permanently absent evidence.

Evidence matters if you are interested in not misleading others. Not everyone has that interest, unfortunately.

[Pooka1]

Pooka1 - I find your comments [..] offensive, and they leave me near beyond words.

I find this comment offensive but have plenty of words to use to characterize them.

[Pooka1]

And i would further state that just because you have not experienced gaining such knowledge - does not mean that such knowledge does not exist.

There's plenty of stuff I don't know.

But nobody knows the "knowledge" you refer to, not just me.

If you have knowledge, please pony up the proof so others can be helped.

[mamamax]

Everytime someone even attempts to try and share the knowledge ... what has gone on in this tread - appears.

Example:
http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=7733

Which in part caused Joe O'Brien to respond here:
http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8765

[Pooka1]

[COLOR="Navy"]Everytime someone even attempts to try and share the knowledge ... what has gone on in this tread - appears.

Example:
http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=7733

That's a funny usage of "sharing knowledge" and I hope you know it. Knowledge is built on evidence. Please share the E-V-I-D-E-N-C-E upon which this "knowledge" is built. The skater shared nothing that resembles evidence.

Remember, science is the only way of actually knowing something whereas anecdote, subjective experience, faith, dogma, etc. are only ways of pretending to know something.

[mamamax]

The Point

There is plenty of evidence in the adolescent forums .. and much outside of forum. Not my responsibility to convince anyone. As someone with scoliosis i prefer to discuss such things with others who truly have interest - all of us in the non surgical forum have that right.

And that is the point.

[mariaf]

[COLOR="Navy"]Word on the Street is that the NSF forum is too hostile for most folks seeking exchange of information regarding alternative treatments not involving surgery. Those in the Non Surgical Adult Forum who wish to share information regarding both traditional and alternative treatments not involving surgery - deserve their place to do so, as Joseph O'Brien has clearly stated.

Mamamax,

I'm not sure what you mean by "word on the street", but I must disagree that anyone is objecting to "exchange of information" regarding non-surgical alternative treatments.

HOWEVER, a lot of folks (including myself) object to UNPROVEN CLAIMS that, for example, a brace can permanently correct a curve. That has simply NEVER been proven to be true.

Similarly, this forum should also be a place to discuss SURGICAL methods of treatment without hostility. BUT, I would ask that you do a search of "stapling" or "VBS" and see how much hostility I and others took a while back for sharing our experiences on a treatment method that helped our own children. We had personal positive experiences with that treatment method - and yet we were abused for MONTHS for trying to share said information (even accused by one unstable member of "recruiting children for surgical experimentation").

My point is - nobody intervened to stop that - I assume because this is a public forum and folks are entitled to their opinions (that includes Pam) even though the anti-VBS posts were full of wacky claims that were downright laughable. It was just one person's insane ramblings. But where were our moderators then?

I say, if this has alway been an open forum - let it stay that way - instead of driving away members who feel the need to be candid in the hopes of, in SOME cases, protecting unsuspecting members from those trying to promote unproven methods for profit.

Just my two cents.

[LindaRacine]

I have seen many in this forum slam others for even discussing PT, Schroth, etc (regardless of the objective). Happened right here in this thread regarding a new member searching for pain relief through Schroth or Clear). This is fact well evidenced reading from posting #1 to here.

There have been findings that indicate curve reduction is possible using many tratitional/alternative treatments (Schroth is one). Now - does this happen in all cases? No, certainly not. Does this happen in some cases? Yes. Is it considered rare? Perhaps. Such things will only happen as any given individual's body/spine responds to treatment. The very fact that such things have happened, if even to only one person on this planet - makes it significant enough for those of us who actually have scoliosis - to explore, in a forum given to us by the NSF - in the spirit outlined in Joe's statement. And i would further state that just because you have not experienced gaining such knowledge - does not mean that such knowledge does not exist.

Maxene...

I thought I was pretty clear when I said that it was OK to post stuff about yourself, but you cannot post things about "findings" unless they come from published studies.

You've complained non-stop in both posts, and in reporting posts. But, it is obvious to everyone that you are intentionally instigating others to make these comments.

Now, everyone, please behave. We all have better things to do with our time.

-Linda

[LindaRacine]

There is plenty of evidence in the adolescent forums .. and much outside of forum. Not my responsibility to convince anyone. As someone with scoliosis i prefer to discuss such things with others who truly have interest - all of us in the non surgical forum have that right.

And that is the point.

Every time someone tries to explain that there is no proof that any alternative treatment will permanently reduce curves in ADULTS with structural scoliosis, you try to redirect everyone to proof in adolescents. They're two different things. You know that, and it's insulting to my intelligence that you think I (or anyone else) would fall for it.

I'm sure no one has a problem with you discussing your treatment with others. If you make unfounded claims, however, you're going to draw comments from people who are trying to protect others from being taken in by false claims.

I've tried to say this half a dozen different ways, but it doesn't seem to get through.

--Linda

[Qikdraw]

[COLOR="Navy"]I have seen many in this forum slam others for even discussing PT, Schroth, etc (regardless of the objective).

I've never seen anybody slammed for asking about PT. I don't know where you get that from. PT is a valid part of pre and post op care. This is well accepted and actually pushed on these forums.

There have been findings that indicate curve reduction is possible using many tratitional/alternative treatments (Schroth is one). Now - does this happen in all cases? No, certainly not. Does this happen in some cases? Yes. Is it considered rare? Perhaps. Such things will only happen as any given individual's body/spine responds to treatment. The very fact that such things have happened, if even to only one person on this planet - makes it significant enough for those of us who actually have scoliosis - to explore,

Well if its only happened to one person, sorry that would not be valid. Its a start, but should in no way be considered valid. If its considered rare, it should not be pushed as a definate help.

I could write a study that says eating peanut butter will help straighten a spine, but until proper studies are published and the process accepted by the majority of scoliosis doctors, its questionable at best.

Schroth has been around 90 years and its still not generally accepted. As I mentioned previously that they base their findings on a 'principle' and 'theories' makes it very questionable. While it may help some people, its something you have to do for the rest of your life, if you stop, for whatever reason, it all comes back. Thats not a fix.

in a forum given to us by the NSF - in the spirit outlined in Joe's statement. And i would further state that just because you have not experienced gaining such knowledge - does not mean that such knowledge does not exist.

It has not escaped my notice that now you and Writer are calling for people who disagree with you to be dealt with. That instead of providing proof to back up your claims, instead you are asking people be repremanded for questioning you. You know it works both ways right? You have the right to push your theories, but others have the exact same right to question you.

This site has seen many shills trying to push their theories for their own profit, as such anyone pushing a method over anything else should be viewed with suspision, and people need to do their own research before trusting the word of anyone on the forum.

[Pooka1]

I've tried to say this half a dozen different ways, but it doesn't seem to get through.

I think the only thing that will get through is this...

God's Backhand

Not that I endorse corporal punishment even by imaginary entities.

[mamamax]

Every time someone tries to explain that there is no proof that any alternative treatment will permanently reduce curves in ADULTS with structural scoliosis, you try to redirect everyone to proof in adolescents. They're two different things. You know that, and it's insulting to my intelligence that you think I (or anyone else) would fall for it.

I'm sure no one has a problem with you discussing your treatment with others. If you make unfounded claims, however, you're going to draw comments from people who are trying to protect others from being taken in by false claims.

I've tried to say this half a dozen different ways, but it doesn't seem to get through.

--Linda

Linda - i have never used the word permanent. For i know nothing is - not for surgery, and not for any alternative/traditional treatment.

[Pooka1]

Linda - i have never used the word permanent. For i know nothing is - not for surgery, and not for any alternative/traditional treatment.

For that matter, life isn't permanent.