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Thread: Research article

  1. #16
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    Yup.

    Well, we know pollution does not help at all.

    Ok, how about gravity? Thats been around for a while! Gravitational effects on the brain?

    Hard to prove with gravity everywhere.

    Oh well,just an idea.

    Magnetism is another thought.

    Ed
    49 yr old male, now 58, the new 53...
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    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...3&d=1228779258

  2. #17
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    Gravity?
    Magnetism?

    Finally something I actually know about.

    Damn, nothing to add.

  3. #18
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    In genetics studies, anything not attributable to inheritance, is environment. And consequently, not easily studied.

    It could be:
    diet
    stress
    epigenetics (thank you Sharon)
    Doing a repetitive movement or no movement
    muscle weakness
    Cell signaling
    post-translational modification of proteins
    hormone regulation
    etc

    So what's left that can damage or alter the central nervous system and screw up cAMP levels?
    Who says that my CNS is jacked up? Your referenced paper is about melatonin signaling pathways in bone.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    PNUTTRO

    I have no evidence that a microbe causes Scoliosis. So far I don't think anyone has ever looked or even knew where to look.

    However your twin study strongly suggests that Scoliosis is triggered by the environment. So what could that be?

    A) Scoliosis existed long before pollution
    B) It existed long before food additives and pesticides
    C) It existed long before modern medicine or vaccines
    D) It existed long before kids sat in front of TVs and computers

    So what's left that can damage or alter the central nervous system and screw up cAMP levels?
    The only idea I can come up with that makes any sense is a pathogen.

    If that's how this turns out remember that Dingo said so years earlier.
    Well, until someone disproves it, you might be right.

    And I might add about all this microbes causing diseases business, small pox killing 500 million people (including many children) in the 20th century, etc.... that's some fancy "intelligent" design.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by titaniumed View Post
    Well, we know pollution does not help at all.
    No actually the thought w.r.t. Type I diabetes is that we have cleaned up our microenvironment so much that the lack of immune challenge from microbes, dirt, etc. may lead to an inappropriate huge response that triggers autoimmune damage.

    We should be eating more dirt. As I understand it.

    Now you are of course correct w.r.t. xenobiotic compounds as opposed to natural microbes and dirt and such.

    Then there is stuff that comes out of the blue... Tasmanian devils are headed towards extinction from clonal tumors.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/18/sc...ewanted=1&_r=1

    Hopefully the guys working on saving them succeed.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  6. #21
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    Melatonin Signaling

    PNUTTRO

    Who says that my CNS is jacked up? Your referenced paper is about melatonin signaling pathways in bone.

    Unless I'm confused (always possible) Melatonin signaling is managed by the Central Nervous System.

    When my 5 year old was diagnosed with a 10 degree curve I asked his doctor what caused Scoliosis. He told me that his friends in the research community believed it was a neurological disorder. The crooked spine we see is the side effect. My son is smart, happy, athletic, handsome, etc. etc. So clearly it is a very focused type of damage. I assume that the cells or neurons responsible for Melatonin Signaling are either dead or damaged. It reminded me of Diabetes where a virus leads to the destruction of just one type of cell and leaves everything else intact. Regardless of the cause if the 13% pairwise concordance holds up it's clearly environmental damage of some type. I doubt gravity will be on the short list for disrupting Melatonin Signaling. 8-)
    Last edited by Dingo; 03-30-2009 at 11:29 AM.

  7. #22
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    Tasmanian Devils

    Pooka1

    Wow, that's too bad about the Devils. A lot of cancer in humans are now blamed on various pathogens.

    Depending on the article I read scientists now believe that anywhere from 15% to 20% of cancers are caused by microbes. Just a couple of decades ago scientists didn't think that any common cancers were caused by microbes. That's a pretty big shift.

    Boston Globe: Contagious Cancers

  8. #23
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    Now, we get to the heart of the matter.

    This whole discussion is not about melatonin, tamoxifen, pathogens or genetics. Your motivation here is regarding your son. I think if you keep that foremost in your thoughts, you will find the best treatment option (or not treatment option) that is appropriate for you and your family.

    I will try to summarize what little I know about melatonin and all that you related here. First, melatonin is a hormone produced in the pineal gland and circulates in the body via the blood stream. As far as I know, there have been no studies that say that there is a failure to produce melatonin in people with scoliosis. There is, however, some reason to believe that there is some relationship between genetic variations in melatonin and the way bone cells of scoliosis patients respond to it.

    cAMP is a second messenger. In the study you posted, it is used as a mechanism by which the scientists can detect signaling within the cell as a result treatment with melatonin. It is NOT a diagnostic measurement. These studies are interesting for understanding the biology of osteoblasts, but have no diagnostic value.

    Regarding the tamoxifen issue, these authors really do seem to think the a highly toxic drug seems appropriate for the treatment of scoliosis. They don't state it outright, but they offer no alternative either, such as, this is an interesting biological study. I hate to dismiss it outright without reading it all the way thru, but the premise is so unpalatable to me.

    You can read my other posts about genetic testing for scoliosis. Dr. Ogilvie is at Axial Biotech--enough said. Dr. Moreau had a press conference several years ago about how he was going to cure scoliosis. I have no time to entertain such thoughts until a treatment is offered. Genetic testing is not a treatment and will likely not change the course of anyone's scoliosis treatment at this time or any time in the near future.

    Meanwhile, if melatonin is the at the root of the problem, maybe exposure to the sun in the daytime and a regular sleep schedule is appropriate.

  9. #24
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    Tamoxifen in chicken model

    My comments regarding tamoxifen in the previous post referred to the mouse paper by Turkish authors. In the chicken model, the authors clearly state that they used tamoxifen just to look at biology.

    Quotation from chicken paper:
    "Calmodulin is known to be the second messenger for melatonin on various target tissues, probably including striated muscle as well. Melatonin may have an effect on the spinal alignment by way of modulating the paraspinal muscle tone presumably by way of the anticalmodulin effect."

  10. #25
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    I just hope PETA doesn't find out about the "bipedal" mice and how they get that way.

    And do they really walk around on their hind legs or do they drag themselves backwards or something? Either way, I don't see how that is relevant to a true bipedal animal (humans). They might as well leave them quadrupeds as far as I can tell.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNUTTRO View Post
    The article that I referenced in this thread was a very good genetic study that, I think, has a simple take home message. A person's risk of acquiring scoliosis is determined more by one's environment rather than genetics.
    OK, now I am confused.

    Just exactly on what point do you disagree with Dingo?

    I thought I remembered reading where you said what I quoted above. Now after rereading it, it looks to me like you agree.

    Maybe I am being dense and you disagree with the WAY he said it rather than WHAT he said.

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