anyone interested in going to Schroth Clinic in Germany?

[lauriek]

Hi,

I'm 55 yo with an 80/55 curve, and recently increased problems with breathing. Otherwise in OK shape. I was thinking of going to Scoliosis Rehab, Inc. in Stevens Point, WI for 1-week Schroth clinic. But I had second thoughts when my insurance wouldn't cover it. One week would be about $3,000. I compared that to Schroth Clinic in Germany, the originator of program. It charges $135 Euro/day (or $160.10/day if my math is right - 1 Euro = $1.26) for a minimum of 4 weeks that would come to about $4,500. And I wondered how effective the one week in WI is compared to the four weeks in Germany. I think it would take quite a lot of effort and time for body and mind to absorb physical retraining, especially at my age. And that it makes more sense to go for the more intensive program, especially with difference in price for the one vs. 4 weeks. Of course airfare will add. But then you don't have to pay for accomodations in Germany - it's included in price, where hotel and food costs would be added to stay in Wisconsin.

But one problem would be language barrier. I emailed the German clinic. Most of the program would be conducted in German. But I was thinking if a group of us went over there together, maybe we could arrange for translators or even some kind of discounted group rate. Anyone interested?

They have openings in February and after May. Below is the email response I got from clinic from my initial inquiry. (I kept the "Germanisms" and typos so you get an accurate picture). By the way the clinic I asked them about mentioned in their response was Scoliosis Rehab in Wisconsin. It has not been certified through them, but through the other European clinic in Spain. From reading thru forum, several people have had good experiences at Wisconsin clinic, so not 'dissing' them, but did want to clarify.

***

Dear Ms. Klinger,

thank you very much for your inquiry and your interest shown in our inpatient intensive rehabilitation programme.

At present the Asklepios Katharina-Schroth-Klinic is worldwide the only clinic offering such an inpatient intensive rehabilitation programme of 5 ½ hours per day. Knowing this programme, patients concerned Knowing this programme, patients concerned will learn help for selfhelp with special exercises for their individual curvature.

Daily costs of inpatient treatment including accomodation for the patients: Euro: 135,--
The full amount has to be paid 6 weeks in advance. The first treatment should to go over 4 at least.

The therapy language is German. Only a few single exercises can be made in English. Nevertheless, english speaking patients are well integrated in our therapy, because of the physically demonstration of the exercises.

Our therapie is the physiotherapie 5 – 6 hours per day, Saturday from 08.00 – 12.30 h individual, but most in groups. Patients with the same curvature will be done in groups from the 2. week of treatment. In the first week patients who come the first time, are learning special exercises for their individual curvature and get the basic information about scoliosis.

The reservation can be made per email. We need the personal data of the patient. Arriving and departure is only on Wednesday. Please send us a medical certificate about the scoliosis and, if there are other diseases, also a certificate about this. There are openings in February and from May on

Further information about our clinic you will find under our internet adress www.skoliose.com or www.asklepios.com.

The clinic you mentioned is not known to me, sorry.

Hoping to hear from you soon we remain

sincerely yours,


Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Rosemarie Bleif
Leitung Disposition
__________________________________________________
Asklepios Katharina-Schroth-Klinik
Korczakstr. 2, 55566 Bad Sobernheim
Tel.: +49 (0) 6751 874 162, Fax: +49 (0) 6751 874 170
email: r.bleif@asklepios.com, www.asklepios.com

[lauriek]

one more thought

I was thinking if we could get a group going to clinic, maybe we could interest some research scientists to tag along, document before, during and after results, and/or use for a longitudinal study -- monitor curve, lung capacity, heart, etc.

While I'm fantasizing, maybe they would underwrite cost of treatment as part of research.

We need more hard data on non-surgical treatments collected by impartial third parties. Bet there would be no shortage of willing guinea pigs. Anyone have good connections to scoliosis research community?

[Karen Ocker]

Schroth Klinik for advanced adult curves

Most of the literature/research, that I have read in the National Library of Medicine on-line, done by the Schroth Klinik, shows good results with adolescents having curves below the surgical threshold. It includes bracing. I doubt, since the vertebrae become wedge-shaped with long standing curves, that a permanent correction/reduction could happen. Even some of those youn patients need surgery.

On the other hand the conditioning and muscle strengthening from intensive physiotherapy always helps reduce pain and improves function so long as they are continued.

In my case, with a thoracic curve of 80 deg, I had already lost lung tissue and breathing capacity--and it was getting worse.

Does the Klinik know your age and curve severity?

[green m&m]

I was thinking if we could get a group going to clinic, maybe we could interest some research scientists to tag along, document before, during and after results, and/or use for a longitudinal study -- monitor curve, lung capacity, heart, etc.

While I'm fantasizing, maybe they would underwrite cost of treatment as part of research.

If you want such thing to happen, it could be a long wait(months...years...). It's a couple of months long process for a scientist to write a proposal, get it reviewed and maybe get a grant, assuming there's funding available in their area of research.

In clinical trials/study, most of the cost of the trial(for the patient) isn't covered by the research study anyway.... the insurers get billed, you still have copays and incur travel costs.

I think it's unlikely even if someone is interested in researching that patient's costs can be covered. Basically leads down to, who's going to fund it and how much are they willing to allocate? As far as I've seen, reserach funding has been getting tighter all around.

Even if there was a funding available for schroth right now, I think even May is too early for someone to write up a study design, get it approved and get the $. Of course that doesn't meant someone with the means to do so can't just decide to do a longitudinal research w/o those approval processes but a poor study design in the end can result in discrediting the conclusion derived from the data.

[Pooka1]

Why can't Schroth publish their own research?

They have 90 years of data.

So the question becomes why haven't they published anything convincing in all that time?

[Karen Ocker]

There is lots of research from the Schroth Klinik written by a physician there -Dr. Weiss.

[Pooka1]

There is lots of research from the Schroth Klinik written by a physician there -Dr. Weiss.

Yes I know.

Do you find yourself persuaded by any of it?

[LindaRacine]

There is lots of research from the Schroth Klinik written by a physician there -Dr. Weiss.

Unfortunately, unless things have changed recently, none of the research includes any long-term follow up.

[Pooka1]

Unfortunately, unless things have changed recently, none of the research includes any long-term follow up.

Not to mention any short-term follow up IIRC.

Only about a third of the articles present any novel research (vice lit reviews or other topics besides Schroth physical therapy as it relates to idiopathic scoliosis) with any reasonably large size group as far as I can tell.

If Schroth or any PT could avoid surgery for idiopathic scoliosis in the long term, we would all know it by now. And yet Schroth has somehow managed to hide this "fact" for 90 years and counting.

[lauriek]

I agree there needs to be more research, especially long term. But I bought the Schroth book, and there are many impressive photos and x-rays of both adolescents and adults who have improved with the treatment. It includes photos of follow-up on clients from adolescence into adulthood. I do not believe it would be possible to manipulate the images enough, as significant as the changes are, and as deformed as some of the clients were.

I also read Martha Hawes book "Unwinding" about her own journey of self-improvement. She had a 47/26 curve at age 37. By age 47 it was down to 28/13, with no surgery. She has photos and x-rays. She didn't use Schroth, she tried a whole bunch of alternative treatments, including exercises, physical therapy, reflexology, shouting, etc. She is a research scientist and also wrote "Scoliosis and the Human Spine: A critical analysis of current approaches to the treatment of spinal deformity and a proposal for change". In it she debunks the prevailing wisdom that exercise and physical therapy have proven ineffective for scoliosis. She showed how researchers had dismissed those modalities without ever conducting research on them. She also went back through history and gave examples of how scientists had dismissed their own evidence in order to maintain that belief.

I think there is a reluctance on the part of conventional medical community to fund studies on alternative therapies because it is not where doctors or industry make their money. Also it is harder to study. It is more about behavior and other difficult to qualify data, and less about concrete equipment and techniques.

On the other hand, I too am skeptical about why the Schroth clinic did not do more with research and documentation over all these years. But there can be reasons other than quackery. For example good clinicians may not be good researchers. I think alternative therapies have potential and are worth studying. Then we can determine once and for all if there is some efficacy to them. And Schroth is one of the more promising candidates because there is some evidence already that it can make a difference, including for people like me, middle-aged adults with severe scoliosis, by at least improving pulmonary capacity, circulation and comfort. If independent studies prove otherwise, at least they can help more desperate people from getting ripped off.

People on the forum keep writing about how there is no scientific proof. Why not help find the proof for or against and expand our knowledge on what can help people with scoliosis. I think most would agree pain killers and surgery are not the ideal.

Does anyone have advice on who I can contact in the research community to encourage their studying Schroth? I went to Scoliosis Foundation website, and found several contacts there under "Mentors" that I have emailed. Any other ideas?

Laurie
317-637-6242

[bas2101]

Schroth

Hi LaurieK,

If you are interested in our experience with Schroth, you can PM me.

brooke

[Pooka1]

And a PS...

Of those one third of the citations that do address idiopathic scoliosis with Schroth, I think many/most/all include the Cheneau(?) brace. So I don't see how they can separate the bracing from the PT when there is some evidence that certain bracing works. It's been a while since I looked at Weiss' pubs so someone correct me if I'm wrong here.

If there are any papers with large and hopefully long-term studies using JUST Schroth PT showing that it has permanently and significantly decreased an idiopathic scoliosis, I haven't come across it. The constant mentions by Writer of Weiss' citations are arm-waving that glosses over the woeful lack of pubs in 90 years.

Anyone have a citation?

[Writer]

Laurie,

Thanks for posting the info. I would go to Bad Sobernheim if I were you. In fact I would do it if I were me, but I need to be able to scrape together the $5k and at least a month's vacation time. I hope to do it within a year or two.

That being said, I've heard only good things about Beth Janssen's clinic in Wisconsin. One big advantage of going there is that you'd understand all the nuances of the explanations, and could ask whenever you didn't. Downside is that the term is shorter. I think the reason for the longer program is that it takes a while to get the feeling of how to do your exercises and monitor yourself, since you have to continue exercising on your own after you leave.

Either program would likely help you get started improving your vital capacity, which is one of the primary focuses and proven successes of the Schroth method.

As for a clinical study, I doubt that any practicing doctor or scientist would take it on unless he were already very interested in such a method. Even then, it's easier to control in your own facility. The most likely way could be to find a doctoral candidate in physiotherapy or some related discipline who needs a dissertation topic. There have been several dissertations on the Schroth program written for German universities (authors Goetze, Schlegel, Tomaschewski and Vogepohl in the Lehnert-Schroth book's bibliography), though I haven't seen the theses themselves. But there would be quite a long lead time before such a project could get set up, as green m&m suggests.

[Andrea]

schroth

if you are interested learning the exercises and do it yourself daily you can just find a physiotherapist who took the schroth course in Germany.

If you live close to Ottawa Canada you can call 613-233-1235 ottawa & district physiotherapy clinic.

[Pooka1]

Hey Andrea,

How many cases of scoliosis have you seen proven (radiographic evidence over time) to be stabilized or improved in the long run with exercise?

Can you point to a single pub in a refereed journal showing that?

What if you stop the exercises when you get sick or pregnant?