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  • Censorship attempts

    The reader who browses this whole forum will run across some heated exchanges where some regulars insist, without reference to their own direct experience or scientific publications, that nonsurgical treatments for scoliosis are nonsense, paranormal, charlatanry, whatever. The tone is sarcastic or nasty. This is counterproductive for the forum. There would be no non-surgical section of the forum if the NSF founders and managers were certain there was no hope beyond surgery. So what is behind the denials?

    Some time ago I got a PM that clearly explains the phenomenon. I will let its author speak for herself.

    =======================================
    Regarding the immediate criticism, I don't believe that there has been a personal side to your posts. Rather it appears to me that some stakes in censoring, and controlling, a discussion about alternative therapies appear to be irrationally driven by a need to trust the experts who performed or will perform their author's revision or other surgeries.

    As a post-fusion (t6-l3, Harrington rod, 1981) subject, I do understand the desperate need to believe in that expertise, and the so-called 'fixes' it claims to provide. I wanted to say, however, that I have benefited enormously from chiropractic treatment, especially network. Physical therapy and supplements have also been crucial to managing my comfort level. Though prior to surgery as a teenager, my mother dragged me around to a variety of unproductive alternative therapies that had a destructive impact (and I very much appreciated surgery when I finally had it), it is clear to me now that even if surgical treatments were appropriate in most cases, they are also very often insufficient by themselves.

    The board seems to be comprised of a number of subjects who describe a sort of post-surgical unreality, one that I am familiar with, in which it is very easy to confuse immediate satisfactory results with long-term sufficiency of treatment. Most responsible orthopedists will concur that stabilizing exercises, and a variety of other alternative treatments, are necessary for inhibiting the side effects of spinal fusion. The best surgeons I've met have encouraged me to pursue alternative treatment options (physical therapy, chiropractic and supplements). I would be very skeptical of any surgeon who polarized his technique against less invasive, and specifically non-medical, approaches.

    That said, I wanted to state clearly that my lesson from the levels of trauma and denial involved in extreme scoliosis (I was 68 degrees pre-fusion and settled to 45 degrees over the years after fusion) is that all knowledge is good knowledge. I have read all of your posts on alternative treatment as informative, questioning, suggestive statements. I have read some of the more fiery 'anti-alternative' posts as prescriptive and directive - something that I imagine could also be productive and comforting for people who are at ease in being told what to do and think. The negative aspect of that more pejorative style, unfortunately, is that it undermines the value of a public forum by valuating and censoring additional forms of knowledge.

    For instance, I think it's very important that the list NOT be required to articulate a consensus. Though the tension and disagreement might be uncomfortable for some who in varying stages of crisis seek to be told what to do (a completely understandable reaction), I strongly believe that people cannot learn from one another without bringing forth their differences of experience and opinion. The issues in this discussion are much bigger than we are, and are, for this reason, absolutely worth talking about since they integrally effect the way we understand our bodies, our practices, and knowledge in general.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Writer
    Regarding the immediate criticism, I don't believe that there has been a personal side to your posts. Rather it appears to me that some stakes in censoring, and controlling, a discussion about alternative therapies appear to be irrationally driven by a need to trust the experts who performed or will perform their author's revision or other surgeries.
    Aside from the fact publically posting PMs (and that HAD to be several with the character limitation) are declasse, Writer, it appears you grabbed an exchange mid-stream.

    Did you obtain permission from the author to post her words? You included enough personal info about the person anyone who cared enough could ID the person if they post much.

    (... assuming the "author" wasn't just a "writer" ...)
    Fusion is NOT the end of the world.
    AIDS Walk Houston 2008 5K @ 33 days post op!


    41, dx'd JIS & Boston braced @ 10
    Pre-op ±53°, Post-op < 20°
    Fused 2/5/08, T4-L1 ... Darrell S. Hanson, Houston


    VIEW MY X-RAYS
    EMAIL ME

    Comment


    • #3


      I've only been reading for a few months but I wouldn't classify this forum as leaning towards any level of censorship from any quarter on any subject.

      Folks who post unsubstantiated or blatantly counterfactual claims should not be surprised when the rational response comes along.
      Last edited by Pooka1; 06-25-2008, 07:36 PM.
      Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

      No island of sanity.

      Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
      Answer: Medicine


      "We are all African."

      Comment


      • #4
        I figured that some of the perpetrators would pipe up with negative comments. Welcome to the thread, how nice to see you. But pooka does not recognize her own recent actions as the immediate impetus for my post. (See "Scroth book?" thread)

        The author explicitly said I could post the PM, or I'd have rewritten and paraphrased it.


        Quoth pooka1:
        "Folks who post unsubstantiated or blatantly counterfactual claims should not be surprised when the rational response comes along."

        I agree, and will trust rational readers on this board to evaluate claims themselves, and to discern motivations of all posters.
        Last edited by Writer; 06-26-2008, 01:59 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Writer,

          Is there a point somewhere? Please explain what your post added to anyone facing treatment (of any sort), enduring treatment, or recovering.

          Your spoon is oversized and ill-suited, me thinks ...

          Explain how you weren't using said spoon to stir some pot only visible to you ...

          (very handy, BTW, the "writer" said you could use her words ... puh-leeze.)

          Pam
          Last edited by txmarinemom; 06-25-2008, 10:15 PM.
          Fusion is NOT the end of the world.
          AIDS Walk Houston 2008 5K @ 33 days post op!


          41, dx'd JIS & Boston braced @ 10
          Pre-op ±53°, Post-op < 20°
          Fused 2/5/08, T4-L1 ... Darrell S. Hanson, Houston


          VIEW MY X-RAYS
          EMAIL ME

          Comment


          • #6
            Essentially it is the constant snide comments and sarcasm emanating from you, pooka1, and mariaf in particular, directed at posts talking about nonsurgical treatments, especially Schroth. Not only mine. Also in posts I've made where I dispute the authority of your orthopedists, most of whom have little knowledge of or interest in treatments other than surgical.

            With this thread I'm offering an explanation for this -- not to the perpetrators, who aren't going to understand -- but to the mostly silent majority on the board who may be baffled by frequent hostility to so-called alternative treatments. One would think we'd all be overjoyed if someone found a way to halt progression or reverse a curve and avoid surgery.

            I invite the dispassionate reader to have a look at pooka1's reaction to the very remarkable success story of threejoys, a brand new member of this forum, in Bish's thread "Scroth book?" and judge whether that was appropriate. And whether the phenomenon is not accurately described by my introductory post in this thread.

            Your sarcasm is so thick and constant you don't even recognize it, tex, but others do. Doesn't deter me, because I see its roots, described above.

            Comment


            • #7
              "Also in posts I've made where I dispute the authority of your orthopedists, most of whom have little knowledge of or interest in treatments other than surgical. "

              Writer,

              I don't even know where to start! Before my daughter's surgery, I took her to FIVE different orthopedic doctors and not one of them recommended surgery! In fact, everyone of them recommended that we try everything in our power to AVOID surgery.

              "Your sarcasm is so thick and constant you don't even recognize it, tex, but others do. Doesn't deter me, because I see its roots, described above."

              I agree, there is a lot of sarcasm on this forum. I consider Pam (texmom) a friend of mine, but I've also told her a few times that she is coming on too strong or the way she stated something could be taken the wrong way or could be offensive to some. She listened to me, but never told me to mind my own business and we are still friends.

              Pam, MariaF and Sharon aren't the only ones dishing out the sarcasm. Sometimes we need to look closely at ourselves before judging others. We are not here for judgement. We are here for the friendship and support that we can't get anywhere else. I've received more information from this forum than I ever could have from any medical professionals.

              Maria, you know how I feel about you! Jamie and I couldn't have gotten this far without your help! Pam, we've only recently become friends, but I look to you to see what I can expect from Jamie's adult life. Nothing holds you back and that's exactly what I want for Jamie. Sharon, we too have only met, but I'm so glad I could share Jamie's experience with you. I look forward to watching your daughter hit every milestone in her recovery.

              Keep on keepin' on!

              Mary Lou
              Last edited by Snoopy; 06-26-2008, 01:24 PM.
              Mom to Jamie age 21-diagnosed at age 12-spinal fusion 12/7/2004-fused from T3-L2; and Tracy age 19, mild Scoliosis-diagnosed at age 18.

              Comment


              • #8
                Great post, Mary Lou!! And I hope you know the feeling is mutual :-)

                I am not going to respond to the initial post because I see no point to it other than to "stir the pot". Things have been rather friendly around here lately but I guess that environment doesn't suit everyone.

                Getting back on topic - I've seen you help a ton of parents over the years. Also, Pam, Sharon and many others here - whether patients or parents - are contantly reaching out to help others.

                And, even when we sometimes disagree among ourselves I can ALWAYS see the good intent folks have. If someone is voicing their skepticism about a particular method, it is because they have someone else's best interest at heart! Heck, it even happened with regard to VBS. Some folks questioned it, called it too new, etc. I had no problem with it SO LONG as they were stating accurate facts and not just posting without doing their homework, as I had on the procedure.

                So, I just want to put my two cents in and say that I think for the most part this is a wonderful forum, with plenty of people who devote a lot of time trying to help others. Over the years, I've seen a ton of EDUCATING of 'newbies' going on here. Many folks have told me they learned more from the members here than from their own research, or from their own doctors, etc.

                So as you said, Mary Lou, everyone please keep on keepin on!
                mariaf305@yahoo.com
                Mom to David, age 17, braced June 2000 to March 2004
                Vertebral Body Stapling 3/10/04 for 40 degree curve (currently mid 20's)

                https://www.facebook.com/groups/ScoliosisTethering/

                http://pediatricspinefoundation.org/

                Comment


                • #9
                  Scroth

                  I did a search for Schroth on google and Quackwatch.

                  There are isolated studies on Schroth and it is not mentioned on Quackwatch. I submitted a question to Quackwatch on Schroth; Let's see if they can answer it. They only answer a small percentage of questions because apparently there's so much quackery and so little time.

                  I guess it comes down to the exact claims Schroth makes.

                  I found this site which appears to list the claims:

                  http://www.schrothmethod.com/

                  The photo series of the correction to the boy with polio seems to far exceed the claim:

                  "At least partly reverse abnormal curvatures"

                  That kid's curve appears to be almost completely straightened (in three weeks!), making me wonder if there is something different about scoliosis due to polio vice idiopathic scoliosis. Also, I'd like to see a long-term follow-up on that kid.

                  Also, why is this coming out in book form as opposed to in some top-shelf medical journal? That is always a red flag.
                  Last edited by Pooka1; 06-29-2008, 11:45 AM.
                  Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                  No island of sanity.

                  Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                  Answer: Medicine


                  "We are all African."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Writer
                    Your sarcasm is so thick and constant you don't even recognize it, tex, but others do. Doesn't deter me, because I see its roots, described above.
                    Who said I didn't recognize it - or intend it above, Writer? BTW, these "others" of whom you speak are free to drop me a note. I hardly think anyone needs you to speak for them.

                    If someone wants to try Schroth, more power to 'em. Really.

                    It's not the method itself that elicits my sarcasm ... it's the fact that you push it in almost EVERY post you make - despite the circumstances. Sorry to burst your bubble, but if Schroth were a cure there would BE no "surgical" sections on this forum.

                    Personally, I believe you have some vested interest (i.e., financial) with your continual bleating, but that's just my own lil' opinion - and really neither here nor there.

                    There are other topics here I find more interesting than a deliberate attempt to foster non-productive dialogue. Please carry on without me .

                    Regards,
                    Pam
                    Fusion is NOT the end of the world.
                    AIDS Walk Houston 2008 5K @ 33 days post op!


                    41, dx'd JIS & Boston braced @ 10
                    Pre-op ±53°, Post-op < 20°
                    Fused 2/5/08, T4-L1 ... Darrell S. Hanson, Houston


                    VIEW MY X-RAYS
                    EMAIL ME

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by txmarinemom
                      There are other topics here I find more interesting than a deliberate attempt to foster non-productive dialogue. Please carry on without me .
                      I don't mind non-productive dialogue as long as it's humorous.

                      At times, on this group, I prefer humorous nonsense to straight talk.

                      ps. If being sarcastic is wrong then I don't want to be right.
                      Last edited by Pooka1; 06-26-2008, 04:44 PM.
                      Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                      No island of sanity.

                      Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                      Answer: Medicine


                      "We are all African."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I feel the need to put my two cents in here. I doubt that having a section here on non-surgical methods has anything to do with lending credibility to them, but to our first amendment and the freedom of speech. I think what we all need to remember is that what people post here is, for the most part, opinion based on their own experiences. It should be considered just that unless the author can site specific credentials to their training and knowledge, or references to studies or other information that can support their claims. It's our job, for ourselves, or our children, to sort out the information and hopefully make an educated decision as to what we think is best for us.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          And, Slice ...?

                          Your experience with scoli is ...?
                          Fusion is NOT the end of the world.
                          AIDS Walk Houston 2008 5K @ 33 days post op!


                          41, dx'd JIS & Boston braced @ 10
                          Pre-op ±53°, Post-op < 20°
                          Fused 2/5/08, T4-L1 ... Darrell S. Hanson, Houston


                          VIEW MY X-RAYS
                          EMAIL ME

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by txmarinemom
                            And, Slice ...?

                            Your experience with scoli is ...?


                            Is Slice like the guy in Fight Club who goes to all those self-help groups without having any of those conditions just because he likes to???
                            Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                            No island of sanity.

                            Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                            Answer: Medicine


                            "We are all African."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Oh gee, was I talking about scoliosis?

                              Okay seriously here, no I have not had to deal with scoliosis, but I do deal with having obstructive sleep apnea. There are parallels here in terms of the forums in that there are people their who tout the benefits of certain treatments that many feel is "quackery". Being a former respiratory therapist, I have a bit more knowledge than many in terms of many respiratory problems, and of the anatomy of the airway. Yes, it does get annoying to hear people repeatedly touting methods that seem to be aimed at getting around more conventional, and proven methods, and that in essence, feed on peoples' fears or difficulties in dealing with more conventional, and proven methods. What's really annoying is the effort to push these methods when there is such little evidence that they work, and defy logic as to how they would work. As I said before, everyone has the right to post on any forum as they wish. Yes, some of the retorts and sarcasm have their place and are often a lot of fun to read, but perhaps there are times when things get a little too intense. The main point that I was trying to make, aside from the right to freedom of speech, whether it be here, on the sleep forums, or any other forum is that those reading the posts should to a certain extent take the info with just a little grain of salt, unless it is information that can be cited with references, or by a credentialed expert in the subject. It is up to the reader to glean what information they feel is beneficial to them or their children.

                              Comment

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