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Thread: Richard III found and he had scoliosis

  1. #1
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    Richard III found and he had scoliosis

    The spine was badly curved, a condition known as scoliosis, but there was no trace of a withered arm, as some Tudor historians had claimed Richard had.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-21063882
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

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  2. #2
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    I have seen the play Richard III at least 4 times and her is always portrayed as a very twisted person physically. He was quite malicious and paranoid. Thanks for the interesting article. Susan
    Adult Onset Degenerative Scoliosis @65, 25* T & 36* L w/ 11.2 cm coronal balance; T kyphosis 90*; Severe disc degen T & L stenosis

    2013: T3- S1 Fusion w/ ALIF L4-S1/XLIF L2-4, PSF T4-S1 in 2 surgeries
    2014: Hernia @ ALIF repaired; Emergency screw removal surgery for Spinal Cord Injury at T4,5 sec to PJK
    2015: Revision Broken Bil T & L rods and no fusion: 2 revision surgeries; hardware P. Acnes infection
    2016: Ant/Lat Lumbar diskectomy w/ 4 cages + BMP + harvested bone + prayer

  3. #3
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    I'm in the UK and all of my friends are very excited about this :smile: Richard III still has a lot of ardent supporters, especially in the north of England. There is even a dedicated "Richard III Society" devoted to remembering him in a positive light. He has a reputation as an evil king, purely because Shakespeare portrayed him thus in his play - but Shakespeare was biased, as he wrote his play for Elizabeth I, the granddaughter of King Henry VII who killed Richard at the Battle of Bosworth Field and stole his crown. Contemporary records suggest that Richard was generally a good, fair king; Shakespeare portrayed him with a twisted body to reinforce the idea that he was also twisted in spirit.

    He's also got a bad reputation because he may have been involved in the murder of the Princes in the Tower, his nephews, who went missing when Richard became king. It is assumed that he did away with them because they had a claim to the throne. I think this is likely; the skeletons of two young kids were found underneath a staircase in the Tower of London during building work a century or so later. They were ruthless times.

  4. #4
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    hey Sharon...saw the skeleton on TV...
    looks like lower lumbar scoli...
    not the "hunchback" he used to be described as...

    doesn't sound like a very nice guy to me...
    apparently, lots of folks didn't like him....
    maybe that is why his skeleton wasn't found sooner!
    i heard the story about how he was buried in a church,
    church is gone now, etc...but if he was well liked, i figure
    they would have been searching for him sooner.

    jess

  5. #5
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    Hi Jess,

    He has a mid-thoracic curve with the apex at about T7, similar to mine. He'd certainly have had a rib prominence.

    And as I said, he has plenty of fans, especially in the north of England (as he was of the House of York). His reputation was tarnished by the Tudor dynasty, who took the crown from him. All biographers and writers after this were pandering to the Tudors so they portrayed him in a negative light. Henry VII was the last English king to take the crown in battle. Once Richard had been killed in the Battle of Bosworth, his body was ritually damaged and dumped - the monks at the priory got hold of his body and buried it in their chapel. That chapel was then obliterated during the English Reformation, during which many Catholic churches, abbeys and priories were destroyed and the Church of England was put in its place. The site of the Richard's burial was a ruin, became forgotten about and then it was gradually built upon.

    The Richard III society have been doing research and looking for him for years. It is through their efforts and funding that they have finally located his body. There are no other English Kings or Queens from history who have such a following of ardent supporters today.

  6. #6
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    well, OK, toni...if you say people like the guy...
    BUT...i wonder about any king who DID AWAY with his nephews...
    don't care how cut throat the times were...
    makes me REALLY glad we do not have monarchy here in States!

    jess

  7. #7
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    To be fair, the people who like him don't believe that he killed the Princes. There is no evidence that he did, there were plenty of men who wanted those boys dead. It's just that he had the biggest reason for wanting them out of the way.

    Luckily, monarchy isn't anything like it was five hundred years ago. Your country is very different to how it was 500 years ago, too! :smile:
    Last edited by tonibunny; 02-04-2013 at 04:51 PM.

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    Scoliosis is an ancient disease

    The photos of Richard The III's skeleton were fascinating. However Scoliosis has been detected in human remains thousands of years older than his. It is an ancient disease and it's very common.

    This shows that the environmental component of this crippling disease is not something new. It's not a medicine, pollution, vaccine, food additive or some other modern contaminant.

    The only harmful environmental component that's been around for thousands of years is infectious disease.

    It's a safe assumption that Scoliosis is triggered by a harmful microorganism. Genes may play a role in susceptibility to the disease or disease process.

  9. #9
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    Good to see you Dingo! I hope Scott is doing well?

    Indeed, scoliosis is a very ancient condition. You might be interested to read a book that my acquaintance from the University of Wales, Daniel Ogden, has written. It's called "The Crooked Kings Of Ancient Greece" and it's fascinating, but is quite disturbing if you have a spinal deformity yourself. The idea that a tyrant with an evil twisted mind should have a twisted body to match is to a new one! People with scoliosis were scapegoated in ancient times, and it was common practice to "expose" infants with deformities (ie leave them out in the countryside to die) or get rid of them by other means - archaeological digs have revealed wells containing the skeletons of many children with deformities.

    Here's a link to the book:

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Crooked-.../dp/0715627163

  10. #10
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    Hey Tonibunny thanks for the link! I'll check it out.

    Scott is doing great. It's been about 3 months since Scott's last visit and to my eyes his back appears unchanged.

    it was common practice to "expose" infants with deformities (ie leave them out in the countryside to die) or get rid of them by other means - archaeological digs have revealed wells containing the skeletons of many children with deformities.
    The sad thing is that those poor children probably didn't have genetic diseases. They were just sick.

  11. #11
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    Not counting Richard III's spine all of the bones in his body are shaped more or less normally.

    This is typical and it's another huge clue that Scoliosis isn't just a bone disease. That means muscles, ligaments, nerves or something else that guides and/or controls the spine is driving the problem.
    Last edited by Dingo; 02-05-2013 at 04:49 PM.

  12. #12
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    i do not see how finding this king's skeleton proves
    anything about the cause of scoli...
    it is not like researchers have never found an ancient
    skeleton showing scoli before...

    i do not think it proves anything except that the guy
    had scoli...
    and maybe that they didn't look really hard for him
    before...

    jess

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrnyc View Post
    i do not see how finding this king's skeleton proves anything about the cause of scoli...
    Sure it does. The fact that ancient skeletons have evidence of Scoliosis proves that the environmental component of the disease is something that's been around for thousands of years. It's something that humans haven't been able to evolve a defense against and it's something that hits a lot of kids. 3%+/- of children in the 1st world have Scoliosis. That includes places as different as Japan and Sweden.

    If you've got a hypothesis on what the environmental component is other than harmful pathogen I'd love to read it.
    Last edited by Dingo; 02-05-2013 at 05:55 PM.

  14. #14
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    i do not believe any infectious agent or anything in the environment
    causes scoli...
    i do not believe there is any proof anywhere of such a theory...

    but people can believe whatever they wish...
    America is a great country.

    jess

  15. #15
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    i do not believe there is any proof anywhere of such a theory...
    You are substantially incorrect. Scientists know that Scoliosis has an environmental component.

    I'll let the largest twin study ever conducted on Scoliosis do the talking.
    Heritability of scoliosis

    Methods
    Self-reported data on scoliosis from 64,578 twins in the Swedish Twin Registry were analysed.
    Results
    The prevalence of scoliosis was 4%. Pair- and probandwise concordance was 0.11/0.17 for mono- and 0.04/0.08 for same-sex dizygotic twins.
    Put simply if one identical twin had Scoliosis the other had it just 11% of the time. Among fraternal twins if one had Scoliosis the other had it just 4% of the time.

    Conclusion
    Using self-reported data on scoliosis from the Swedish Twin Registry, we estimate that 38% of the variance in the liability to develop scoliosis is due to additive genetic effects and 62% to unique environmental effects. This is the first study of sufficient size to make heritability estimates of scoliosis.
    Something in the environment plays a large part in determining who gets Scoliosis and who doesn't. Scientists don't know what it is but it's very common and it's been hanging around for thousands of years.

    To me at least process of elimination suggests that it's a harmful microorganism. Until someone comes up with a better explanation that's what I'm sticking with.
    Last edited by Dingo; 02-05-2013 at 11:32 PM.

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