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Thread: Prayer and Medicine Research

  1. #1
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    Prayer and Medicine Research

    Well, I promised Pooka that I would respond with something about the efficacy of prayer and its role with medicine (and note—I mean WITH, not IN PLACE of medicine) so here goes.

    Pooka1 made the following statement in post #3 here: http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=7386

    “I'll tell you what mystifies me.... that an adult can believe intercessory prayer works. Pony up the peer-reviewed articles if you think it does.”

    And this, from post #20 here: http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...6&page=2&pp=15

    “How would you ever prove a good outcome was due to the prayers of a random confused, ignorant, 11 year old girl?

    How would anyone ever "learn" that? Propose a method so that we can test that so we can "learn" that.

    I love it how on the one hand folks demand evidence-based medicine for themselves and their kids but rely on fairy stories in other facets of their life where the rubber doesn't have to hit the road. Why don't you pray to be healed and forget about modern medicine? One could be forgiven for thinking that is very hypocritical.

    My horse had a serious injury/condition and has been steadily improving though months of rehab through the power of no prayer whatsoever.

    How would you explain that?

    Also, how do you explain how a good, loving god lets little kids get scoliosis and all other afflictions in the first place? You can have that god.

    Can you even attempt to be intellectually honest? Do you know what it means to be intellectually honest? It starts with NOT claiming to know things you can't possibly know. There is NO evidence that intercessory prayer works and plenty of evidence that it does not. You are a victim of inculcation.


    In actuality, there have indeed been research studies conducted on prayer and its possible role in medicine, and published in legitimate journals all around the world, as well as being the subject of many books. These studies sometimes prove one way, sometimes another. They are all good food for thought. They do exist.

    My intention is to just provide some resources that people can look at—others can post some as well, and then people can read and think about what has been presented. For some, this may reconfirm their present views. Others may be looking at information they didn’t know existed. Regardless of our individual stands, I hope this can be a thread for exploring ideas and not an emotional battlefield for pushing agendas without respecting others’ beliefs, whether they be based on a recognized religion or a non-religious world view. I also think it is perfectly acceptable if we share our own belief, as long as we do so without expecting others to also share our view. I find it interesting to see what other people think. I will post my views on prayer in the next post, so that others may understand where I’m coming from. This is not an open invitation for slaughter, just sharing.

    I am not narrowing “prayer” down to any specific faith—you can read these studies and determine if the individual studies have done that or not. Again, this is just a starting point. Please feel free to post links you find. This is for sharing ideas.

    1. http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/...n11101_fm.html

    (same study, different journal)
    2. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...gdbfrom=pubmed

    3. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/10/he...ex=1097467200&

    4. http://ijahsp.nova.edu/articles/Vol2...utz-prayer.htm

    5. http://www.plim.org/PrayerDeb.htm

    6. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...gdbfrom=pubmed

    7. http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2...05-prayer.html

    8. http://www.mercola.com/article/prayer/dossey.htm

    9. http://www.texnews.com/1998/religion/med1003.html
    Last edited by Susie*Bee; 06-09-2008 at 02:50 PM. Reason: number the links
    66 and still heartbroken...
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    Dr. Kim Hammerberg, Rush Univ. Medical Center in Chicago

    Corrected to 15°
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    Click to view my pics: pics of scoli x-rays digital x-rays, and pics of me

  2. #2
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    my OWN belief...

    MY VIEWS ON PRAYER—PLEASE DON’T READ THIS IF YOU DON’T WANT TO READ ABOUT MY “RELIGION”!
    I will state my own belief about prayer as I see it in my life—which is that it is communication with God—the one true and living God, who sent his Son Jesus to live here on earth for awhile and to die on the cross for us… prayer provides an opportunity for us to petition on behalf of others. He does not always answer prayer in the way we might want, but He does answer it—in His time and in His way. We live in a fallen world where there is sickness and evil. He is a loving God, but he does not intervene and stop all that is happening here. We do not have to understand why he intervenes sometimes and not other times. We can have faith in him regardless. For some of you who know the Old Testament account found in the book of Daniel, chapter 3, of the 3 men in the fiery furnace—Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego-- I will stand on what they said in verses 16-18:

    Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to the king, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to save us from it, and he will rescue us from your hand, O king. But even if he does not, we want you to know, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.”

    I view much of the evil, including sickness, as being similar to that fiery furnace—something trying to cause harm to us and shake our faith. And that is how I went into my surgery, knowing that regardless of the outcome, my God was with me and would see me through it, in life or in death. Whether my surgery went well or not. Yes, I believe that the God that I worship does hear my prayers and does answer them. “The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.” (James 5:16b) My God is an awesome God.
    66 and still heartbroken...
    2007 52° w/ severe lumbar stenosis & L2L3 lateral listhesis (side shift)
    5/4/07 posterior spinal fusion T2-L4 w/ laminectomies and osteotomies @L2L3, L3L4
    Dr. Kim Hammerberg, Rush Univ. Medical Center in Chicago

    Corrected to 15°
    2014 DXd w/CMT (type 2)

    Click to view my pics: pics of scoli x-rays digital x-rays, and pics of me

  3. #3
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    Don't Take The Bait....

    Quote Originally Posted by Susie*Bee
    Well, I promised Pooka that I would respond with something about the efficacy of prayer and its role with medicine
    Sharon aka Pooka1,

    Be the bigger person here and don't respond to Susie*Bee. Show her you know that this forum is for SCOLIOSIS.

    Susie*Bee - PM Sharon if you feel like continuing this fight.
    Last edited by ca-native; 06-03-2008 at 07:52 PM.
    ca-native (daughter had surgery)

  4. #4
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    This isn't a fight. I'm sorry that you interpreted it that way.
    66 and still heartbroken...
    2007 52° w/ severe lumbar stenosis & L2L3 lateral listhesis (side shift)
    5/4/07 posterior spinal fusion T2-L4 w/ laminectomies and osteotomies @L2L3, L3L4
    Dr. Kim Hammerberg, Rush Univ. Medical Center in Chicago

    Corrected to 15°
    2014 DXd w/CMT (type 2)

    Click to view my pics: pics of scoli x-rays digital x-rays, and pics of me

  5. #5
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    Thanks for researching that Susie*Bee!

    That was very interesting... easily one of the more interesting posts of late. I had never really read primary studies but relied on experts who did.

    I looked at all the links though didn't read all of them. I read the NY Times piece.

    I think much of this is in keeping with the several studies (I am told) that show folks with a god belief (any god belief I think) are actually not only happier on average but do in fact live somewhat longer than heathens, again on average.

    Moreover I think your belief probably did help you at least somewhat through your surgery and recovery. That is very likely in my opinion given the results of happiness/health documented from religious belief.

    In that sense, I think it can be good to have a god belief. Some medical people have argued that religion has proven itself useful in this regard. Some other scientists, while admitting that god beliefs do have documented beneficial effects on health, nevertheless tend to be more interested in the truth claims of religion. That is, the claims are either true or false. These latter folks would characterize religion as a useful delusion, but still a delusion. And scientists, by definition, are not in the delusion business no matter how useful.

    Last, I'll just say none of this is counterfactual or anti-science. You don't have to be anti-science and hold counterfactual notions to be religious. I had seven(!) people on my dissertation committee and at least two of them (maybe more!) were known to be extremely devout Christians. And yet they knew the earth is a few billion years old and that evolution is a fact. How did they know that? They examined the evidence which is irrefutable. Anyone who examines and understands the evidence will agree on this. They never saw a conflict. Or if they did, they modified their theology to face scientific facts.

    As the previous Pope said, truth cannot contradict truth. Hence the RCC accepts an old earth, evolution, etc.

    Scientists don't say, "Believe me on this." No. They say, "Don't believe me. Here is the evidence, look at it yourself." It is all there.

    I wish more folks would accept that. Religious folks shoot themselves in the foot when they imagine a conflict with science.

    Thanks again for the interesting post.

    sharon
    Last edited by Pooka1; 06-03-2008 at 09:07 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by ca-native
    Sharon aka Pooka1,

    Be the bigger person here and don't respond to Susie*Bee. Show her you know that this forum is for SCOLIOSIS.

    Susie*Bee - PM Sharon if you feel like continuing this fight.


    This is NOT a fight.

    There was NOTHING wrong with Susie*Bee's post. And I am not convinced this is off-topic for this group given the way the numbers break and the proven efficacy of prayer and god belief (albeit a form of the placebo effect). It's paranormal but nobody is trying to make money of off prayer.

    An intellectually honest argument can be had even about something like prayer.

    sharon

    ps. Susie*Bee, glad you seem to be cowboying up.
    Last edited by Pooka1; 06-03-2008 at 08:27 PM.

  7. #7
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    What I have discovered about prayer/spirituality is this: I've lived my life with it and I've lived my life without it, and whether or not everything "they" say in church is true, life is simply better with it. I personally feel that what's important is making an effort to understand such matters, not the path we take to get there.

    I am also logical and factually minded and find no conflict between science and religion.
    Chris
    A/P fusion on June 19, 2007 at age 52; T10-L5
    Pre-op thoracolumbar curve: 70 degrees
    Post-op curve: 12 degrees
    Dr. Boachie-adjei, HSS, New York

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    Singer a well concise comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Singer
    What I have discovered about prayer/spirituality is this: I've lived my life with it and I've lived my life without it, and whether or not everything "they" say in church is true, life is simply better with it. I personally feel that what's important is making an effort to understand such matters, not the path we take to get there.

    I am also logical and factually minded and find no conflict between science and religion.
    I just wanted to say, Chris this is a great response to the ongoing debate (not fight) the whole thread has become intriguing. =)

    Thanks all.
    Kevin
    AIS and Traumatic Scoliosis
    Degrees always differ (LOL)
    THIS FORUM ROCKS!!!!!

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    I wish Titaniumed would weigh in on this.

    I wish Titaniumed would weigh in on other things also.



    sharon
    Last edited by Pooka1; 06-04-2008 at 07:57 PM.

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    Smile Finally! I'm back...

    Everyone—thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on prayer! It was interesting to read how you view it in your lives. It would be nice if some others want to chip in their thoughts too. And I’m glad ca-native ended up understanding we weren’t fighting.

    Sharon—I’m sorry it’s taken me so long to post again. I didn’t have much time for thinking through what I wanted to write… mostly because there were several things I’d like to address that you said. First, let me admit that I think I understand you better than you realize. Until I was 35, I was just as firmly convinced as you are about the "delusion of religion” (necessary for some, but definitely not for me) and I would have argued with anyone about how idiotic the idea of creation was, when all the “facts” proved evolution. We are all products of inculcation—including those that teach atheism and secular humanism, etc. In that sense, we are all brainwashed with something. I had the biggest battle and the greatest victory of my life in coming to the realization that everything I had believed and stood for was false, and that God truly exists. My whole life came crashing down around me at that point and has been built up since then, on His foundation. I know God exists, and I know he created all things. Anyway, I wanted you to know I once stood in those same shoes (or very similar ones) that you now stand in…

    I"ll admit I was a bit disappointed that you didn’t read through the medical journal research articles. I honestly would like to hear your valid opinion, but it has to be based on more than a cursory glance or so. I think maybe you skirted reading them because your mind is already “set in concrete” on this topic, so you think you know what the research shows. Even so, I would hope you would use that intellectual honesty of yours to read, even if it’s just to understand the “enemy” better. I often do that. How do you know how to “fight” (not really) when you don’t know who the “enemy” really is. Going on generalizations rather than facts won’t help you to understand what the battle is based on. The journal articles would be better than the newspaper one, if only because then you’d be getting the info straight from the horse’s mouth, rather than letting someone else digest the food and then taking their word for what it says. That was the point of the links. I hope you’ll take another look at them and read through some—I would suggest #1 and 8, from top to bottom. (I went back and numbered them, for ease in discussion…) Let me know what you think of them. I need to read them again too! And no one else put any links in YET. Maybe they will.

    I fully understand how you might think prayer could act as a placebo, but you’ll find the study (I think #1) breaks it down into 4 different possibilities, with that being just one. Plus, if it’s only a placebo, how do you account for the study on women’s fertility, where none of the women had any knowledge that they were being prayed for? Food for thought…

    Regarding your understanding of scientists… I think if you researched it, you will find that there are scientists who do not see religion as you have stated—as a “useful delusion”— so it is probably not wise to lump all scientists together that way. In fact, I believe there was a long list of scientists who believed in God and the power of prayer-- in one of those articles. I hope you realize there are also many scientists who do not believe in evolution. I know that sounds incredulous to you. If you would like, you and I can have a discussion on that off of the forum, as it really has nothing to do with scoliosis.

    Glad you thought I “cowboyed” up —but I haven’t. Did you realize many of our personality traits are hereditary? I have always been (and expect I'll remain so!) a peacemaker at heart. I dislike intensely any conflict. That is part of my nature—who I am. There are many people, you being one, whom I would classify as a warrior. Ready and eager to fight for what you think is right… with no qualms about it at all. I am not like that. Both types are perfectly acceptable, but need to be controlled, and occasionally overcome. I do stand up for what I believe, but it is hard for me-- in fact, it is WAY out of my comfort zone. So please don’t think that with this thread I am “cowboying up”—I am just expressing my convictions on what I know to be true, in the hopes that you and maybe some others will learn more about prayer-- that it is actually being researched by scientists as something important, to be reckoned with-- and to also know that studies have shown it to be more than a mere placebo. It is not just "warm fuzzies," or an avenue that leads to a happier, healthier life through delusional thinking. It is real, because God is real. Even if you, or they, don’t accept that prayer can result in supernatural intervention by God, then at least maybe you, or they, will give it some consideration and thought. Unless you have a totally closed mind.

    Sharon—I know you wanted Titaniumed to weigh in on this—did you PM him or anything? This thread, being way down in the research section, is probably overlooked by many. You might have to draw his attention to it. Hope to have some more civil discussions, with you and whomever else wants to join in—or they can just state their beliefs.
    Last edited by Susie*Bee; 06-13-2008 at 06:51 AM. Reason: added words "can result in"
    66 and still heartbroken...
    2007 52° w/ severe lumbar stenosis & L2L3 lateral listhesis (side shift)
    5/4/07 posterior spinal fusion T2-L4 w/ laminectomies and osteotomies @L2L3, L3L4
    Dr. Kim Hammerberg, Rush Univ. Medical Center in Chicago

    Corrected to 15°
    2014 DXd w/CMT (type 2)

    Click to view my pics: pics of scoli x-rays digital x-rays, and pics of me

  11. #11
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    Medical validation of prayer

    Wow ! I just checked in and found your post, SusieBee, you did your homework! I haven't read the research yet but I will - THANK you for taking the time to do this!

    First off, let me explain that I am a registered nurse, for over 25+ yrs. I've worked in critical care (5 yrs) emergency (1 yr) medical -surgical including oncology, nephrology and surgical ICU (6 yrs) pediatrics (2 yrs) then education - I taught nursing at a university for 7 yrs., then became a nurse case manager (4 yrs.) and now I'm working as an occupational health nurse- doing medical screening and surveillance on mostly healthy patients, no lifting, work in an office, not the hospital. Much better for my back!

    I have my master's degree in nursing., I've done research on critical thinking in education, and I did summer work as a a program coordinator for two independently funded research projects.

    Why am I telling you my credentials? Because - I also believe in the power of prayer (and not only on a personal, experiential basis).

    Nurses are taught about the value of prayer in their baccalaureate nursing program- it's usually listed as spirituality to encompass all forms of religious beliefs. Nurses are taught to help the patient identify their strengths and use these strengths to help them cope with their illness. Prayer, support from their church and minister, are listed in college nursing textbooks as ways the nurse can help the patient deal with the stress of having a serious or chronic illness. The point being - that religion IS recognized as having the ability to make a positive impact on the patient's recovery. SusieBee lists research that validates the concrete, physical effects of prayer. I repeat SusieBee's comment: use that intellectual honesty and read the research articles. Prayer IS another tool we can offer one another and newbies in their battle with scoliosis. Not instead of treatment- but with treatment, with decision making, with the day-to-day suffering we all experience. Very interesting reading, SusieBee and thank you for drawing attention to prayer as another resource for all of us.

    may I add- God bless you!

    Jamie
    57 years old.
    thoracic curve 68 degrees
    lumbar-sacral curve +/- 41 degrees
    Cspine C3- C7 fusion Nov. 2011 <done! success!!>, then scoli surgery T2- L4 or maybe to sacrum.
    Discogram/ myelogram pending. Surgery to be scheduled, maybe fall 2015. <scared but I know this is not going to get better>
    THANKS TO EVERYONE FOR SHARING EXPERIENCES AND KNOWLEDGE!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susie*Bee
    My whole life came crashing down around me at that point and has been built up since then, on His foundation. I know God exists, and I know he created all things. Anyway, I wanted you to know I once stood in those same shoes (or very similar ones) that you now stand in…
    That's the bulk of conversions as I understand it... folks who hit some wall or death row inmates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Susie*Bee
    I"ll admit I was a bit disappointed that you didn’t read through the medical journal research articles. I honestly would like to hear your valid opinion, but it has to be based on more than a cursory glance or so.
    I checked them enough to know they weren't double blind studies. Unless they are double-blind, they are just measuring the placebo effect. If there were any studies that proved prayer worked apart from the placebo effect, we would all know about it by now as it would constitute the first and only evidence for the supernatural. That's another reason I didn't have to read the studies. There would be no atheists if that happened because there would be evidence. There remains no evidence of anything supernatural. If there was evidence then folks wouldn't need faith. And yet they still need faith.

    And I'm sorry to say but it's hypocritical to say use prayer in addition to modern medicine. Why not just prayer if it works? Isn't the reason because deep down you can't trust prayer to work? And if it only works occassionally, how can you only attribute the "hits" and not the misses to prayer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Susie*Bee
    Regarding your understanding of scientists… I think if you researched it, you will find that there are scientists who do not see religion as you have stated—as a “useful delusion”— so it is probably not wise to lump all scientists together that way. In fact, I believe there was a long list of scientists who believed in God and the power of prayer-- in one of those articles. I hope you realize there are also many scientists who do not believe in evolution. I know that sounds incredulous to you. If you would like, you and I can have a discussion on that off of the forum, as it really has nothing to do with scoliosis.
    This is very misleading. I think you are referring to some survey that asked if folks believed in the PRESENT THEORY of evolution. There is some disagreement on which theory best explains the FACT of evolution. You won't find any mainstream scientist denying the FACT of evolution as defined by change over time, in this case a few billion years. Folks like Francis Collins (Head of the genome project) who is a devout Christian yet still knows the earth is a few billion years old and that evolution is a FACT. He and other religious scientists prove that a person can be religious without being a crack pot. Young-earth creationists are by definition crack pots because the earth is demonstrably a few billion years old.

    The evidence for the FACT of evolution is undeniable. You should look it up. That's why only crackpots and some tendentious and ignorant engineering types and such who haven't studied biology deny the FACT of evolution over billions of years. It is ignorant to do otherwise and in fact is illegal to teach otherwise in public school science classrooms. There is a reason for that. It's the same reason ONLY religious types try to deny the FACT of evolution. It's because it conflicts with certain theologies. And that is an intellectually dishonest reason to doubt a scientific fact.

    There is more evidence for the THEORY of evolution than there is for the theory of gravity. I'll bet you didn't know that. The decision should rest on the evidence, not theology. The evidence SCREAMS the FACT of evolution over a few billion years. The evidence ALSO screams that Bronze Age nomads and Iron Age agrarians didn't know thing one about science.

    The fact is 99.9999999999999% of biologists and especially evolutionary biologists know evolution is an undeniable fact supported by mutually buttressed lines of evidence from fossils to molecular biology that ALL tell the same story... change over billions of years. If you looked at the evidecne, you too would agree evolution is a fact.

    In re TitaniumEd, I just thought he was an interesting guy and I was hoping he didn't just post a few times and then leave for lack of action on the forum.

    sharon
    Last edited by Pooka1; 06-14-2008 at 06:49 AM.

  13. #13
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    Well, here’s my take on religion…

    I’m not a religious person, I’ve tried and it hasn’t fit with me (at least so far in my life). However, for some folks it is an integral part of who they are and if a relationship with God brings them peace in trying times, I think that is pretty terrific. My experience with people who have a deep faith is that they have the comfort of a spiritual relationship supporting them in their life’s ups and downs.

    Here’s the only thing that really bugs me: when someone tells me I must believe 100% in their religious beliefs or I am going to hell. I mean, if religion is such a personal experience that’s great but please, don’t make me out to be a villain if I’m not comfortable being on the same page. IMHO, the most important thing is that if any of you feel that God is an integral part of healing through your scoliosis journey that is absolutely fantastic; embrace it and use it! Because on this forum, indeed wherever there is a large group of people who get together, there will be a very strong difference of opinions. However, our commonality is scoliosis and using whatever tools/support/beliefs we feel comfortable with in how to integrate this disability into part of who we are while making sure it doesn’t define us completely as to who we are, is critical.

    Susie*Bee and Pooka1/Sharon my apologies for my initial misunderstanding of your dialog intent. Obviously you are both very intense, intelligent people. Me, I’m more of a simple person who thinks that religious beliefs absolutely work for some people and for others it doesn’t, like me. Doesn’t make either one of us wrong as long as we don’t try to make the other one wrong, once again IMHO.

    Well, from here on out, I think I’ll watch this interesting conversation from the sidelines.
    ca-native (daughter had surgery)

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ca-native
    Well, here’s my take on religion…

    I’m not a religious person, I’ve tried and it hasn’t fit with me (at least so far in my life). (snip)
    First, I'm very glad you stayed and even more glad you posted to this thread with a very thoughtful post.

    There are plenty of folks like you and me who can't believe. I think it's a combination of having certain knowledge (NOT related to intelligence) and perhaps not having certain brain neurochemical pathways that religious folks have.

    We know that certain brain pathologies like temporal lobe seizures are often accompanied by hyper-religious feelings. You cure the seizures and the hyper-religious feelings go away. Normal religious people might have these same pathways but they aren't abnormally active like in the seizure patients. Atheists are missing these pathways.

    Anyway, the brain science on this is very exciting and seems to all point in one direction... religious feelings seem to originate (at least) in the temporal lobe of the brain and can be manipulated.
    Last edited by Pooka1; 06-14-2008 at 06:42 PM.

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    Smile Thank you, all who have posted or read in this thread...

    TraumaScoli and Singer--thank you for your posts earlier in this thread. I value your input and willingness to share.

    Scooter—thank you for sharing your credentials and helping us to know more about nursing instruction regarding prayer/spirituality—and for sharing your own beliefs with us.

    ca-native—thank you for your input and sharing too—I respect your wishes to not have others forcefully or threateningly push their beliefs on you. That never helps—it only damages.

    Sharon—here we go again, but I am about done, because after we have presented our information back and forth a few times, there is probably no chance of either of us changing our minds—at least not in the near future. I have enjoyed our discussion, but I think we are at a stalemate. We have succeeded in presenting information and sharing, and that has been good. Thank you for your part in this.

    In all fairness (in my mind, to those of us who don’t agree with you) I will respond to some of your recent statements and then I will probably be finished with this, unless the topic returns to it’s original purpose—an exploration of prayer and medicine research.

    My conversion did not happen through some monumental event occurring in my life, but rather it began when I did a self-examination of what I believed-- my world view, which consisted of a rather nebulous combination, fluctuating with time, between atheism, agnosticism and nihilsm, and I discovered there were many holes in the foundation of my beliefs that couldn't be resolved.

    Regarding your statement on prayer—I don’t think you read what I had written, or you wouldn’t have made those statements about the need for medicine or why God does not perform his healing at our will. Prayer is not some kind of hokus pokus, where we ask-- and God obeys. Please re-read what I wrote in my statement of faith, regarding the state of this world and answered prayer. I firmly believe we can intervene on behalf of people and events and circumstances through prayer-- and a loving God hears us. David says in Psalm 40:1 "I waited patiently for the Lord; and He inclined to me, and heard my cry." That doesn’t mean he answers us every time or in whatever manner or way we want. Again, re-read what I wrote earlier.

    There is no hope for you and I to agree or even probably have a civil discussion on evolution vs. creation. I had requested that we discuss this away from the forum. Since you brought it up again, I think that I will reply this time, but no more unless we do it through PMs or emails. I disagree with your statements and I have compiled some links for you (or others) to consider. I will stress again that we are ALL (even you) products of inculcation—evolutionists/atheists included. I think you have been misled, but you think I am delusional—we are at an impasse, but still it has been a stimulating discussion and I’m glad we had it.

    Answers in Genesis is a wonderful (in my opinion) organization and resource for information on creation science. They put out a magazine that is really interesting to some of us. One of the “free” articles on their magazine’s website this month is a very interesting one about how incredible something as simple as a chicken egg is… Those of you who are interested can read it here: (it’s short!)

    http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...incredible-egg

    Here are some links for creation science. I hope you read through some of them, even if it’s just to read what your opponents are saying.

    1. http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp

    2. http://bassethound.wordpress.com/200...do-they-exist/

    3. http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/index.htm

    4. http://www.rae.org/believe.html

    5. http://www.allaboutcreation.org/

    6. http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/03/col...ary/index.html

    7. http://www.creationists.org/outstanding.html

    8. http://www.creationists.org/switch.html

    9. http://worldsareapart.wordpress.com/...e-in-creation/

    10. http://www.conservapedia.com/Creation_science

    11. http://www.conservapedia.com/Theory_...tific_Journals

    12. http://www.reasons.org/resources/in_...20051220.shtml

    13. http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...rove-the-bible

    I also wonder if you could be open minded enough to see the Ben Stein movie that was recently released called Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed… It is an exposé on the loss of academic freedom in Western nations… because of the secular scientific community’s intolerance toward anyone who suggests the possibility of intelligent design. I haven’t seen it yet, but it’s supposed to be excellent.

    Yes, I also agree that titaniumed is an interesting person… and I saw he was on the forum either this week or last, so maybe he’ll “stop by” and see what’s happening from time to time.

    Sharon—I wish you all the best in finding the truth—and the same for me and everyone else as well. We can believe whatever we choose, we may even be firmly convinced, even in our “heart of hearts” -- but it won’t really matter how much we believe it, unless it is THE TRUTH. Take care! Susie
    66 and still heartbroken...
    2007 52° w/ severe lumbar stenosis & L2L3 lateral listhesis (side shift)
    5/4/07 posterior spinal fusion T2-L4 w/ laminectomies and osteotomies @L2L3, L3L4
    Dr. Kim Hammerberg, Rush Univ. Medical Center in Chicago

    Corrected to 15°
    2014 DXd w/CMT (type 2)

    Click to view my pics: pics of scoli x-rays digital x-rays, and pics of me

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