Osteopathy and Scoliosis

[structural75]

Hmmmmmm..... How did I know that response was coming? I'm sorry it doesn't meet your standards. SI was not developed as a means to treat scoliosis... the brace was. However, SI was developed to address a variety of musculoskeletal dysfunctions utilizing a premise containing principles and concepts that were not seen at the time, and even now for that matter. It also specifically targeted its effect on a substance known as fascia, which at the time was virtually ignored by the medical community and seen as nothing more than 'packing material' for the important stuff. Dr. Rolf, working as a biochemist found this to not be the reality and thus focused her efforts on discovering more about this substance and developed a method of working with it and exposed the importance of gravity in the whole equation. We now know ('we' being scientists, M.D.s, researchers, etc) that fascia plays a significant role in human development, function, dysfunction and disease. It posesses communicative properties that exist both in combination with and seperate from the nervous system. It also has redefined our knowledge and portrayal of cellular structure and function.

If you think I'm nuts about this then check it out for yourself... http://fascia2007.com/

There are a wide array of applications for its use and has proven this fact in numerous studies. Yes, they do exist on a variety of other topics.... just not yet performed on the one you're personally interested in. But that's not to say that it isn't effective at times for it, or at least for the painful conditions associated with scoliosis. The work has shown itself effective in many instances for many conditions without formal studies as well. I don't mind if you don't care for things that don't have studies to back them up, but to make the assumption that it's worthless is a bit far fetched and completely unsubstantiated. You're just choosing not to look at the information I provided because you don't want to admit that it is willing to undergo scientific scrutiny, and it is a legitimate profession that has achieved some pretty astonishing results with people. You just want to discredit me and SI... Why, I don't know... ???

Even today, many Doctors don't pay much attention to, nor do they know anything about fascia and its properties/importance/role. Their ignorance on the topic does not mean that it isn't important, just that they are busy with other things and don't have the time, interest or awareness to find out. Just like the SI community may not have a scoliosis study on the top of its list of priorities.

Are there studies to back up regular PT/Physiotherapy, Yoga ,Pilates, gymnastics, swimming, etc. as viable, effective and safe methods of adjunct treatments or exercise? Then why are they often promoted for use?

A scoliosis surgeon recently told one of my clients with scoliosis to do Pilates... How can he offer such advice without studies that deem it safe and effective?

[structural75]

Are you really trying to simply discredit this profession... despite the fact that there are M.D.s practicing it as well?

www.rolfdoc.com

[structural75]

Cheryl,

Hold the phone....... !

There is a list of Spinecor providers on the spinecorporation.com wesite. I'll see if I can copy and post. I would have sworn Dr. Coillard told me they were having some success with it in adult patients to treat pain, but she may not have meant at their clinic, because someone contacted them , I think.

Are you suggesting something that hasn't been proven with studies???? The Drs said they were "having some success with it" and that is suffice... unvelievable!

If I remember correctly you folks were bashing some chiropractors in NYC for using the spinecor on adults for pain management without any studies. Complete hypocracy!

Bish,

I expected more from you on this one... where's your red flag?

[structural75]

I found this interesting... Someone recently posted a comment about 'alternative' therapies... here's what they said: ("Hellerwork" is a method of structural integration created by Joseph Heller who was trained by Dr. Ida Rolf in the early seventies, although it is refered to as "massage", it is not massage, but it tends to be easy for people to relate by calling it such I find)

My son has congenital scoliosis but rare pain. For almost 7 years, I tried many "alternative" manipulative treatments for him, including chiropractic, craniosacral massage, other types of massage, acupuncture... All of it was to help with muscle strengthening, balancing, flexibility, etc. None of it prevented his spinal curvature from increasing. We've spent lots of money, time & energy on all the appointments & he is still getting surgery. The only treatment that he ever felt a noticeable difference from was the Hellerwork massage. We still get those for him since his back gets achy after he stopped wearing his (also apparently useless) brace.

[cherylplinder]

Cheryl,

Hold the phone....... !
Are you suggesting something that hasn't been proven with studies???? The Drs said they were "having some success with it" and that is suffice... unvelievable!

If I remember correctly you folks were bashing some chiropractors in NYC for using the spinecor on adults for pain management without any studies. Complete hypocracy!

Bish,

I expected more from you on this one... where's your red flag?

It hasn't been done for 50 or 60 years, not even 35 years, your point?............................................ ...............

If you looked back at my posts about Rachel, you will see that she was quite debilitated by pain. The brace completely relieved her pain. It isn't that much of a stretch to apply it to adults. It may be a new application for the brace. I am SURE studies will be done to determine if that is a valid application of this therapy!

But Structural, I will be completely honest with you. I was intrigued by the idea of SI. That is why I asked Celia if Dr. Coillard expounded on her answer. But after my conversation with you, I think it is probably a ripoff. I don't see how any legitimate therapy can be around for 35 or 50 or 60 years with the success you claim, and have absolutely NO formal studies done. It really discredits your profession. No wonder Dr. Coillard said "No way..." No sane physician is going to DIRECT a patient into quackery or what MIGHT be that. Without studies, she can't tell what it might do.

It would be lovely to have something else to address the problems. Rachel is only corrected to 20 degrees or so.


Go rant somewhere else.

[Bish]

Hi again

Cheryl,

Structural,
Bish,

I expected more from you on this one... where's your red flag?

I didn't say I was buying spinecore hook line and sinker. I can hardly discredit something without researching it first.Maybe they will be able to provide some evidence of success, since that is their proffession . Plus I did mention in regards to SI that even clinical evidence would be of value.( I currently have my team of scientists working on finding that evidence for SI since you are not able to provide it). I did not say a study was the only evidence of a treatments success. Plus I am currently trying SI. That may suggest i think it is worth a shot, don't you? Or are we still on this "out to get you" thing.
Bish

[structural75]

Cheryl,
With all due respect... you'll have to do better than that to dig yourself out of that hole of hypocracy. Talk about SKIRTING around the issues!!!!!!!!

I don't see how any legitimate therapy can be around for 35 or 50 or 60 years with the success you claim, and have absolutely NO formal studies done. It really discredits your profession. No wonder Dr. Coillard said "No way..." No sane physician is going to DIRECT a patient into quackery or what MIGHT be that. Without studies, she can't tell what it might do.

Absolutely NO studies done... I thought we went over this Cheryl... there may be no studies done on scoliosis (that I've yet to find) but there HAVE been studies done on SI in regards to other conditions and its effective at altering HUMAN STRUCTURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yeah, you're right..... despite the other studies done on SI to confirm its ability to change human structure, it's just "quackery"...... ????

"Without studies, she can't tell what it might do" .......Are you talking about the brace for adult use??????

If you looked back at my posts about Rachel, you will see that she was quite debilitated by pain. The brace completely relieved her pain. It isn't that much of a stretch to apply it to adults. It may be a new application for the brace. I am SURE studies will be done to determine if that is a valid application of this therapy!

So I suppose this logic doesn't apply for me, but it suits you quite well now? Application of the brace from children to adults is similiar???? Really? Can you explain why it "isn't that much of a stretch"? And I suppose if your "SURE", then everything is legit.

I didn't know that your profession had been around that long. It was a sincere question. I did wonder. New therapies haven't have much time for clinical studies.I haven't checked.

After all this BS, you haven't once bothered to follow up any of the links I've posted on the work, or taken a moment to educate yourself a little on the topic of conversation before unloading your babbling rants? Lord knows you spend inordinate amounts of time searching for things to debunk my suggestions... so I'm certain you've got the time.

[structural75]

Plus I did mention in regards to SI that even clinical evidence would be of value.( I currently have my team of scientists working on finding that evidence for SI since you are not able to provide it).

Good for you. Am I not able or not willing to spend the time for this cause on this forum? Wouldn't it appear as if I were really "selling" something if I went through all that time and trouble?

I find you're selective criticism and sarcasm quite intriguing... . Will you be judging SIs relevance/effective for children based on your 'adult' experience as well?

p.s. - I noticed you still haven't addressed my points in recent posts??? You accuse me of skirting aroound things... then your buddy does it quite blatantly and I hear not a peep from you about it... hmmmmm....... makes me wonder about you and your "team of scientists".??? Biased scrutiny? Sounds ike the results of your search may be tainted/skewed from the start.

[cherylplinder]

There was another study performed about 30 years ago on children which also concluded its effectiveness on scoliosis among other things. You can look into that as well if you like. I don't know what else to tell you.

I've already stated there are no formal studies on my profession and scoliosis...


I DON'T KNOW WHY THEY AREN'T PUBLISHING! How are you supposed to answer that question? However, I do see why you're asking about my colleagues, and I'm curious too now that you mention it...

Doesn't appear to be a new application to me.

[structural75]

Doesn't appear to be a new application to me.

Since when did I say that it was a "new" application? What are trying to do now?

Do you care to respond to anything I've asked or pointed out? Or are you going to continue to ignore my replies and just continue to try to discredit me/SI?

I'm tired of these ruthless and senseless attempts of yours... I've given you a response to pretty much everything you've asked.... why can't you do the same?

Are you above reproach?

[cherylplinder]

Quote Cheryl:
If you looked back at my posts about Rachel, you will see that she was quite debilitated by pain. The brace completely relieved her pain. It isn't that much of a stretch to apply it to adults. It may be a new application for the brace. I am SURE studies will be done to determine if that is a valid application of this therapy!
Quote Structural: So I suppose this logic doesn't apply for me, but it suits you quite well now?
Quote Structural: Since when did I say that it was a "new" application? What are trying to do now?

YOU indicated that my logic about a new application for the Spinecor should apply to your case.

[Bish]

Structural

Good for you. Am I not able or not willing to spend the time for this cause on this forum? Wouldn't it appear as if I were really "selling" something if I went through all that time and trouble?

I find you're selective criticism and sarcasm quite intriguing... . Will you be judging SIs relevance/effective for children based on your 'adult' experience as well?

p.s. - I noticed you still haven't addressed my points in recent posts??? You accuse me of skirting aroound things... then your buddy does it quite blatantly and I hear not a peep from you about it... hmmmmm....... makes me wonder about you and your "team of scientists".??? Biased scrutiny? Sounds ike the results of your search may be tainted/skewed from the start.

Well, not really. It would look like you were attempting to back up your points. I never accused you of selling anything.
I will be the first to admit I would not be qualified to make such judgements about SI and kids. Which I can't imagine the same statement ever being released from your lips. I think you know as we have had similar discussions before, the only thing I can do is judge the most logical sounding approaches in an attempt to reconcile the pain I am riddled with every day.

In regards to your P.S
What? You think I am a liar? I can't account for everyone elses statements around here structural. Sorry, what issues am I skirting?
Bish

[structural75]

Cheryl,

Quote Cheryl:
If you looked back at my posts about Rachel, you will see that she was quite debilitated by pain. The brace completely relieved her pain. It isn't that much of a stretch to apply it to adults. It may be a new application for the brace. I am SURE studies will be done to determine if that is a valid application of this therapy!
Quote Structural: So I suppose this logic doesn't apply for me, but it suits you quite well now?
Quote Structural: Since when did I say that it was a "new" application? What are trying to do now?

I'm sorry your daughter was in so much pain, ...so why is it so hard for you to accept or consider that SI (Which is most well known for its high rate of success in treating chronic pain that 'conventional' methods have little or no success with.) might be relevant here as well? Afterall, treating pain with a brace may not be a bad idea for some, at least in part. But it is a shotgun approach... What's the harm in a far more precise approach as well?

Would you Please just respond to this point and stop rephrasing it... this is frustrating. You can't put someone through all this strict scrutiny and then exempt yourself from it.

YOU indicated that my logic about a new application for the Spinecor should apply to your case.

In all seriousness Cheryl, why not? Do you have special privileges as a non-professional to make that assumption? Is your advice not subject to the same scrutiny that I am? The spinecor was designed and intended specifically to reduce, stabilize or slow the progression in children, not as a form of pain management in adults. I do think it is probably useful for some adults, in fact I'm sure it has already proven itself useful to some, even though there is no study to show it. Would you agree? It sounds like that is what you're saying.

So why would something as anatomically and physiologically sound as SI not be another viable option despite the lack of studies, which I'm SURE you'll see someday? Is there a sound anatomical/physiological reason why you seem to think it's not a reasonable adjunctive option? I still haven't heard why it is unreasonable to you, besides the lack of studies... which doesn't seem to bother you about the proposed completely different use of the spinecor brace in adults. (SI has been applied to scoliosis since its conception 50+ years ago by its founder Dr. Ida Rolf. She began her inquiry into developing this work to help her son who had scoliosis and as a research scientist/biochemist she did not feel that the health care system at the time offered adequate treatment options,... which were essentially crude braces and the scroth method of exercise/pt.)

SI has clearly shown that it is willing and able to go under scientific scrutiny, as it has for other conditions. Simply because it hasn't done that for scoliosis doesn't mean that the profession is trying to 'avoid' something or 'scam' people... That is your own personal belief, probably based on legitimate fears stemming from other disciplines. However what you don't see are SI practitioners opening 'scoliosis treatment centers' and trying to make a business out of it like some of the other professions are doing... with questionable results. We do our work with a variety of conditions just as PT does its work with a variety... i.e.-Scroth method of Physical Therapy. It is a specialized field of PT just as there are practitioners of SI who have developed and interest and expertise in working with scoliosis. I will tell you with honesty, you can't go to just any SI practitioner and expect they will have the experience necessary to create the most effective potential change. That is why I have offered to help people find experienced and knowledgable practitioners for their scoliosis if interested.

[structural75]

Dave,

I will be the first to admit I would not be qualified to make such judgements about SI and kids. Which I can't imagine the same statement ever being released from your lips.

I don't know to say Dave other than that is my professional experience. I have seen its effect in children... I'm sincerely sorry that I can't give you the 'proper' evidence to prove it to you.

I think you know as we have had similar discussions before, the only thing I can do is judge the most logical sounding approaches in an attempt to reconcile the pain I am riddled with every day.

Did you take my recommendation on a practitioner? I'm just curious... no harm meant by that.

What? You think I am a liar? I can't account for everyone elses statements around here structural. Sorry, what issues am I skirting?

I just found it interesting that when Cheryl suggested that the spinecor would be a good option because the Drs in Montreal 'heard' it had been effective for some that you didn't seem to apply the same harsh criticism of her opinion... despite the lack of studies. When I mention the use of SI for children or adults... you're all over me looking for proof.... essentially calling ME a liar.
You seem shocked that someone might be calling you a liar (which I wasn't, it had nothing to do with honesty, just biased scrutiny) yet you don't expect me to get upset when you all call me a liar! Maybe you can understand where my condescending tones come from at times. Rather than sling name calling around I'm trying to explain myself and clarify issues that get dragged through the mud... in the process I'm obviously frustrated and upset that people are viewing my intentions this way and my response subsequently can take on a condescending tone. Sorry, but I'm not going to lay down while you all trample over me.

p.s. - You mentioned this earlier and I thought I gave you some 'online' resource as at least one example. ??? Was this not good enough? Do you really think that the 9 chiropractic treatments over the course of three years is actually what caused all of its effect? Or can you consider that the three years of SI treratment is what changed this woman's spine?
http://erikdalton.com/articles.htm#S...20Case%20Study

Plus I did mention in regards to SI that even clinical evidence would be of value.( I currently have my team of scientists working on finding that evidence for SI since you are not able to provide it).

[structural75]

Maybe the naysayers would be interested in keeping a watch on the "Rolfing and Scoliosis" thread in the Non-Surgical section. I won't dare post there as it seems everywhere I go turns into a big debate and we lose sight of the original post.

This way you can read for yourselves what people think who have actually utilized it... for better or worse... I will submit to that possible reality .

After all, 'evidence' also comes clearly from the mouths who have tried it.