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Thread: Osteopathy and Scoliosis

  1. #46
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    You also make claims of reversal of adult curves.
    Let's be clear instead of making it sound as though I'm making absolute gaurantees... Yes, it has been effective at reducing adult curvatures to varying extents... but only in my experience prior to the age of 30. Bony deformation is usually too substantial beyond that.

    You didn't answer my question. You appear to be evading the question. Why are none of your colleagues publishing?
    I DON'T KNOW WHY THEY AREN'T PUBLISHING! As for me... I simply don't have the time to get into something of that nature... scoliosis is not the only thing I work with Cheryl. Asking me why they are not publishing is like me asking you 'why Dr. Coillard doesn't utilize or support any other methods with her brace, including Osteopathy or otherwise.' How are you supposed to answer that question? However, I do see why you're asking about my colleagues, and I'm curious too now that you mention it... just as I would hope you could understand why I might ask Dr. Coillard the question I presented.

    Can we see each others points here?

  2. #47
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    Bish,
    Structural, I forgot to mention its also too bad that the medical sytem is not using my new invention in collaboration with documented forms of treatment like bracing. Imagine the results they could see then!
    It's unfortunate that you feel rubber bands and popsicle stickes are going to help... you might want to re-work the baseline premise if you hope to be taken seriously.

    p.s. - Is there something specific about my "theory" that doesn't hold water for you? I'm genuinely curious... Also, I think it's only considered a "theory" if it actually hasn't been applied and successfull in its attempt (regardless of whether it occurred in a clinical setting or a study). Once a theory is 'tested' and applied it is no longer a theory but a reality, right... ? (even though it may not be 100%, etc...)

  3. #48
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    [QUOTE=structural75]bish-
    Theories... "Backing them up" isn't solely accomplished through studies Bish... I think we all know that. As much as you may not like 'clinical evidence', it is very much a reality and can not be dismissed due to a lack of a study.

    Structural,

    Backing up theories is ABSOLUTELY accomplished by studies. That is the ONLY way a theory can be proven or disproven. Clinical evidence is collected, analyzed, and presented to determine if the evidence supports the theory. There is no other way. This process is presented in kindergarten with their science projects. That is not meant as a slam. It is simply a fact.
    God has used scoliosis to strengthen and mold us. He's good all the time!On this forum these larger curves have not held forever in Spinecor,with an initial positive response followed by deterioration. With deterioration, change treatment.The first year she gained 4 or 5 inches and was stable at around 20/20 in brace, followed by rapid progression the next year.She is now 51/40 (Jan2008)out of brace (40/30 in Spinecor) and started at 38/27 out of brace(Jan2006.) Now in Cheneau.

  4. #49
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    Hey structural.

    I am not gonna argue with you. You seem to have a way of skirting around everything. You are one of those people who is always right regardless of what everyone else says.
    Don't you think a few results would be better than none? Sure somebody might have something to say about the results not being significant enough, but so what? It would lend some credibility to your plight. ( which I understand you don't care what people think, I know).
    Also the whole patient confidentiality thing is another copout. If I was your patient and you made significant changes I would be asking your permission to praise your existance. I am not kidding. You are telling me, you ask patient x, whom you have treated and changed their life, if you can tell the world about what you have done to save others from experiencing the same pain, they are going to say no? How about you suggest you don't use their name, face? Have it verified by their radiologist/doctor. I am not sure if I ever mentioned, but I asked my radiologist if he has ever seen an adult seek treatment for scoliosis and display a reduced curve in a follow up xray. He says no. Not that he has seen every xray in the world of course but it kinda says it must be very rare. I would tend to think if you can reduce curves, the medical system would be coming to you, saying "Holy cow, how did you do that?". If you had a radiologist verify by his own xrays that you reduced a curve I personally would be hugely impressed.
    I am a believer that non traditional treatments such as SI may eventually be the answer or part of the solution. I guess that is why I try them, so I don't think you can lump me into the category of disagreeing with you on the premise that I am simply not willing to buy into non - medical style treatments. Bish

  5. #50
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    I absolutely think it is reckless for you to recommend that a patient go against the advice of their world renown physician.
    I think it is bizarre. I think it takes a tremendous ego.
    Especially if that patient is already having phenomenal success with the current treatment.
    It might be different if the patient were a treatment failure.
    Again, what are your credentials to make such a recommendation?
    I won't let you by with that.
    You have slammed and critiqued Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard on this thread, stating that "of course they use their hands... to hold a scalpel." Implying that they would withold any therapy that would benefit their patients, insults their integrity. Calling them arrogant and ignorant is very insulting. I call that bad form.
    No!
    I don't see your point at all.
    Last edited by cherylplinder; 06-27-2007 at 11:43 AM.
    God has used scoliosis to strengthen and mold us. He's good all the time!On this forum these larger curves have not held forever in Spinecor,with an initial positive response followed by deterioration. With deterioration, change treatment.The first year she gained 4 or 5 inches and was stable at around 20/20 in brace, followed by rapid progression the next year.She is now 51/40 (Jan2008)out of brace (40/30 in Spinecor) and started at 38/27 out of brace(Jan2006.) Now in Cheneau.

  6. #51
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    Cheryl,
    Did I answer your questions? ... So why do you insist on avoiding mine? As I pointed out earlier, Doctors everywhere are practicing outside the scientific method by prescribing drugs to people without studies or tests to show there efficacy/potential "harm" for 'other' conditions. Are you telling me that's OK but my suggestions for ADJUNCT treatment is not?
    I absolutely think it is reckless for you to recommend that a patient go against the advice of their world renown physician.
    WHEN DID I SUGGEST GOING AGAINST THEIR ADVICE? When did I start prescribing treatments here???? I suggested asking them WHY they gave that advice... and I still haven't heard an answer to that from Dr. Coillard. Have you? Don't try and blow this any more out of proportion than it already is Cheryl! This has nothing to do with egos... I'm anonymous, remember? How does anonymity conatain ego?


    You have slammed and critiqued Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard on this thread, stating that "of course they use their hands... to hold a scalpel." Implying that they would withold any therapy that would benefit their patients, insults their integrity. Calling them arrogant and ignorant is very insulting. I call that bad form.
    I NEVER slammed them, those are your words... I questioned why they came to that decision... There is NOTHING WRONG with questioning things... That is the only way people can move forward in the treatment of this condition. And that is precisely what your Dr. did which resulted in creating a soft brace. She obviously questioned the previously 'accepted' use of the rigid braces capabilities and limitations. Where is the probl;em with wanting to know why?

    The comment about the scalpel was a mere point in fact.. they don't do manipulative therapy nor are they trained in it, do they? Was I really "implying" that they withold therapies... or isn't that just a fact... for better or worse. Do you personally know why they don't combine any other treatment whatsoever with their brace? Do you know why they don't bother to treat the cause of the scoliosis, just the symptom? Do you know why they believe that forcing the curve back is the only thing that needs to be done? Do you know why some cases fail and some succeed utilizing the same method? Do you think it might be that we're missing something by simply relying on force to get these curves straightened, slowed or reduced? Why does it seem so absurd to you that a more well-rounded approach might exist?

    I've answered your questions, now please answer mine to at least show that you've been able to consider both perspectives. Otherwise it seems that your just out to "slam" me and that's just "bad form".

    p.s. - I think it's "reckless" for you to assume and assert that a brace of any kind is actually addressing the source of the problem at hand and that your Physicians are the only reputable ones around. It's a great start, but it will continue to show its limitations and such until we have a change in perspective and strategy on this.
    Last edited by structural75; 06-24-2007 at 07:25 PM.

  7. #52
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    Backing up theories is ABSOLUTELY accomplished by studies. That is the ONLY way a theory can be proven or disproven. Clinical evidence is collected, analyzed, and presented to determine if the evidence supports the theory. There is no other way. This process is presented in kindergarten with their science projects. That is not meant as a slam. It is simply a fact.
    You're skipping over the obvious... "clinical evidence" is the very thing that proves or disproves the theory... the presentation is irrelevant. You don't need to put that "evidence" and analysis into a formal study for it to prove/disprove the theory. Do you see what I'm saying?

    Sounded like a slam to me... You know I'd love to actually have an intelligent anatomically, biomechanically and physiologically based discussion on this but I realize that you're not capable/qualified for that. It would help create an understanding of what we're talking about here. That wasn't meant to be a slam either, but it's hard to put it any other way.

    You rely on studies because you're not educated about biomechanics and such to the degree that you could determine for yourself what is sound and logical and what is not. I am educated enough to make that suggestion, I'm not superceeding anyones Dr's advice. People ask about approaches on this forum, generally because all of your "proven" methods have yielded little or no results for them. So what is the harm in suggesting something, regardless of studies? What would you suggest to them that they do?

    p.s. - Calling your Drs. ignorant is not an insult... Definition: Ignorant - Unaware or uninformed. Calling your Dr. 'stupid' would be an insult.. which I do not believe to be the case.

  8. #53
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    Bish,
    You seem to have a way of skirting around everything. You are one of those people who is always right regardless of what everyone else says.
    My goodness... What have I skirted around this time? I've answered your questions... I've got how many of you coming at me on a regular basis and I'm doing my best to follow up on every comment/question. If I miss 'one', just let me know and I'll get right back to you.... .

    I'm amazed that you are accussing me of skirting questions... Have you not read my posts? I've been asking countless questions and making comments/points that I was expecting replies to but I haven't heard much of a peep from any of you on them.

    Consider ALL parites involved before making comments about me like that.. the same rings true for many others, if not much more so.

    structural

  9. #54
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    [QUOTE=structural75]You're skipping over the obvious... "clinical evidence" is the very thing that proves or disproves the theory... the presentation is irrelevant. You don't need to put that "evidence" and analysis into a formal study for it to prove/disprove the theory. Do you see what I'm saying?


    Absolutely the evidence has to be compiled and analyzed and statistics calculated to determine if it supports or disproves your theory. That is the only way for others to see your point. Do you see what I'm saying?

    Otherwise it is just an unsubstantiated claim.

    And that is what you are making on this forum, unsubstantiated claims.
    Last edited by cherylplinder; 06-24-2007 at 11:44 PM.
    God has used scoliosis to strengthen and mold us. He's good all the time!On this forum these larger curves have not held forever in Spinecor,with an initial positive response followed by deterioration. With deterioration, change treatment.The first year she gained 4 or 5 inches and was stable at around 20/20 in brace, followed by rapid progression the next year.She is now 51/40 (Jan2008)out of brace (40/30 in Spinecor) and started at 38/27 out of brace(Jan2006.) Now in Cheneau.

  10. #55
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    Hello

    Structural,
    The "skirting" was not in regards so much to the questions at hand but more to the fact that your perception of your responses is much different than everyone else sees it. You skirt around the tone at which you come off, suggesting that it was warranted or you had no intention of coming off in that fashion or you were being attacked. Anyways I am not gonna cry myself to sleep about it.

    In regards to evidence, I am not suggesting a study is the only conclusive proof of success. Clinical evidence is a start but we don't even have that do we? Regarding scoliosis and SI of course. I notice we have downgraded a bit now to success in patients not exceeding 30 years old? Did I miss something (or selectively read your posts) in regards to SI and adult scoliosis. Does your "clinical evidence" suggest me at 35 yrs old would be wasting my time with SI in regards to any hope of a curve reduction?
    As far as my belief in SI beyond scoliosis. I guess you would know better than me. I have not seen any startling clinical evidence pertaining to structural change, but nor have I actively looked. Are you aware of any tangible clincal evidence with SI for spondy (which I have I think 66 degrees) kyphosis, lordosis, sheurmans etc? I ask about these because change could be recognized on an xray.
    Bish

  11. #56
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    Bish,
    A study was more recently performed at the Univ. of Maryland which showed/concluded a "significant reduction in swayback(lordosis of the lumbar spine)" as well as "pelvic inclination", etc.. It was a legitimate study... You can do the leg work if you want your hands on the details of it.
    Clinical evidence is a start but we don't even have that do we?
    Says who? Just because I can't sit here and order x-rays and such from coleagues and post them on the internet means that there's no clinical evidence? If you want it so badly then just go and search it out yourself. But please stop barading me about it... if you don't like what I have to say then so be it... .

    There was another study performed about 30 years ago on children which also concluded its effectiveness on scoliosis among other things. You can look into that as well if you like. I don't know what else to tell you.

    If you think I'm a lier, which obviously you do, then that's not my problem. If you think I'm "downgrading" things, that's not my problem either. The only thing I've said about reduction oof adult curves is that it has been effective to some degree in some individuals... but it becomes progressively more difficult to liberate beyond the mid twenties or so due to greater bony deformation. Aren't I, and haven't I been honest about that? My recommendation to you was primarily for your pain issues, isn't that so? You stated you were in a lot of pain and couldn't seem to find anything to resolve or diminish it. Hope you see some benefit.
    As far as my belief in SI beyond scoliosis. I guess you would know better than me. I have not seen any startling clinical evidence pertaining to structural change, but nor have I actively looked
    Take a look, there are studies demonstrating its ability and effectiveness at creating structural changes beyond scoliosis... that is precisely what the work is known for.

  12. #57
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    Cheryl,
    Not unlike your unsubstantiated claims that it doesn't/can't have an effect.

  13. #58
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    How long has SI been used?
    God has used scoliosis to strengthen and mold us. He's good all the time!On this forum these larger curves have not held forever in Spinecor,with an initial positive response followed by deterioration. With deterioration, change treatment.The first year she gained 4 or 5 inches and was stable at around 20/20 in brace, followed by rapid progression the next year.She is now 51/40 (Jan2008)out of brace (40/30 in Spinecor) and started at 38/27 out of brace(Jan2006.) Now in Cheneau.

  14. #59
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    For about 50 - 60 years. More prominantly over the past 35 years or so.

  15. #60
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    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm................Then the lack of published studies makes even less sense to me. I thought maybe it was a new field of pracitice.
    God has used scoliosis to strengthen and mold us. He's good all the time!On this forum these larger curves have not held forever in Spinecor,with an initial positive response followed by deterioration. With deterioration, change treatment.The first year she gained 4 or 5 inches and was stable at around 20/20 in brace, followed by rapid progression the next year.She is now 51/40 (Jan2008)out of brace (40/30 in Spinecor) and started at 38/27 out of brace(Jan2006.) Now in Cheneau.

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