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Thread: Osteopathy and Scoliosis

  1. #31
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    Statistics speak for themselves. Any reasonable, rational, intelligent person can read and evaluate a well done study with statistics and supportive evidence.
    Statistics and data speak for themselves, whether they're published in a study or not. And yes, anyone can read a study, but do you actually understand why and how things work? Again, if you did, then you'd see why Doctors regularly prescribe medication/drugs to people everyday that have not been tested/studied for those intended uses. They do it because it has been deemed safe for other conditions and with their professional and educated knowledge they're able to apply its use to 'other' conditions as well.
    I just asked, since you disagree with Dr. Coillard's recommendations, if you were also published. In other words, what are your qualifications that I would take your recommendation over hers!
    I don't disagree with all of her recommendations... but I would like to know 'why' she feels there is nothing else that could be of benefit to certain people. There's nothing wrong with asking WHY... All too often we neglect this aspect of both the condition itself and the treatment... and that is often how some people get led astray doing other things that simply have no hope of having an effect.
    People may "feel and see the difference" but there are objective parameters that should be measured and documented to support any therapy. Where are your documented, published objective parameters that support your recommendations?
    Again, see above mentioned... Besides, as much as I'd like to show you something, I can't at the moment. But that has been the main problem you people have had with me from the start, and I've conceeded to that fact. So if you don't care to try my recommendations (which I never gave to you anyhow, or anyone who wasn't asking for one) then don't, plain and simple. Go on your merry way and I'll go mine. But you're not going to stop me from giving my opinion or experiences.
    Cont..Especially if you are going to give advice that goes against the advice of a child's physician, and it appears by the physicians response that they feel that treatment may be harmful. I think you feel comfortable giving Dr. Coillard's and Rivard's patients your recommendations, which are contradictory to theirs, because there is no professionaly liability on this forum. No one can pursue litigation for your advice here, I suppose.
    Celia took it upon herself to set up an appointment with an Osteopath, I didn't twist her arm. I made an observation and expressed it regarding the x-ray... I would still like to hear the "PhD's" opinion of it... Not just that she's opposed to anything else. In my book, parents deserve an explanation so that they understand why. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm not superceeding the Dr.s orders, just asking why, I'd be interested to know if my Dr. was limiting treatment options... wouldn't you? After all, it would clarify just what type of supposed harm it might cause... maybe we'd all be a little more enlightened from that.
    Professional liability, and more importantly my patients' health, is precisely why I work with their Doctors, not seperate from. It is also why I will often refer them to a surgical specialists when I see something of concern prior to treatment. I recently did just that for an 80 year old woman with a lumbar scoliosis never treated because her doctors never detected it until late into adulthood... (primarily because many Doctors hardly touch their patients or thoroughly examine them because they're too busy looking at their 'files' and various other paper/lab work.) This woman had been treated by a chiro with adjustments and a lift... very inappropriate given what was happening with her spine. I examined her x-rays and suggested getting more recent ones and taking them to a specialist. She did and the Doctor didn't even examine her body, just looked at the x-rays, said she shouldn't have surgery (obviously at her age) and that she should get drugs for the pain and do Pilates!!!! He felt she should leave her spinal health up to a Pilates instrucor with 30 - 40 hours of anatomy training... You've got to be kidding me! Meanwhile, he agreed with everything else I suggested to her and our work is the onlly thing that is making a significant and lasting difference (granted we are primarily concerned with pain issues and mobility and functional biomechanics of her hips, pelvis etc. ... her spine is not going to change at this late point in time.) So maybe you can see why I always question everything and everyone, including the relevance of my own work with every person... whether they have a PhD in biomechanics or not. A surgeon works their own set of tools to apply that knowledge, I work with a different set of tools to apply that knowledge.... Everything looks like a nail if all you've got is a hammer... The Doctors are doing what they can within their domain, I can respect that but won't limit myself and my patients to one single opinion or perspective... including my own.
    But as you are not an orthopedic surgeon, nor a pediatrician, nor have you done a PhD in the biomechanics of the spine and are not published anywhere, I think I'll take Dr. Coillard's advice, thank
    Ortho surgeon uses knives, I wouldn't expect them to have direct experience with much else... I use my hands. Pediatricians often suggest "waiting and watching"... terrible advice and should constitute negligence. Many of the PhDs in my profession have in fact worked successfully with scoliosis... whether published or not. If the PhDs you speak of took their head out of the books for a moment and did some leg work to see what was really going on out there, maybe they'd see things differently.

  2. #32
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    [QUOTE=structural75]Statistics and data speak for themselves, whether they're published in a study or not.

    You have collected and recorded data? How many patients are in your study? What parameters are you measuring? What are your controls?

    Are you systematically collecting verifiable data and recording it? Are you then figuring the statistics on your data?


    You are always talking out of both sides of your mouth, constantly contradicting what you yourself say.

    Examples: You have stated the following:

    Drs. Coillard and Rivard developed the best brace on the market, but are arrogant and ignorant to dismiss the alternative therapies you recommend because they want a sterile study of the Spinecor brace (Which implies that they are more concerned with that than the health of their patients.)

    Although I know Dr. Coillard and Rivard do surgery when there is no alternative, to say that they don't have much experience with much else is absurd. To imply that you use your hands and they don't is absurd! They devote the majority of their time to the Spinecor brace because they believe it is preferable to surgery! I know they aren't in it for the money. They tell me every time to pay them their fee, IF I have the funds!

    If the PhD's in your profession are having success in their treatments of scoliosis, they sould collect their data and publish. Initial results don't take 10 or 15 years. You can see results in the treatment of adolescent, juvenile and infantile scoliosis in a short amount of time because the scoliotic curve either deteriorates, improves, or stabilizes. These kids are growing and you see one or the other rapidly.

    If initial results with the Spinecor had been poor, the brace would not be in its second decade of use. We are not the pioneers. The initial patients were. Yet, I know they were monitored closely for any deterioration in their curves and treament adjusted accordingly. The data was recorded for the statistics that I read before choosing this brace for my child.

    Again, if the PhD's in your profession are having success in their treaments of scoliosis, the should collect their data and publish.

    I don't have time to list all the inconsistencies I see in your posts. I am not going to waste any more time corresponding with you right now.
    Last edited by cherylplinder; 06-23-2007 at 06:54 PM.
    God has used scoliosis to strengthen and mold us. He's good all the time!On this forum these larger curves have not held forever in Spinecor,with an initial positive response followed by deterioration. With deterioration, change treatment.The first year she gained 4 or 5 inches and was stable at around 20/20 in brace, followed by rapid progression the next year.She is now 51/40 (Jan2008)out of brace (40/30 in Spinecor) and started at 38/27 out of brace(Jan2006.) Now in Cheneau.

  3. #33
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    Contribution

    [/QUOTE]Besides, you people have shown me virtually no respect, if at all... since when does my "word" mean a darn thing to you?

    Continue to humor me.[/QUOTE]

    You have yet to earn the respect of many on this forum. All you seem to do is add insult to injury. As for your word, it obviously doesn't mean anything to anyone here - so keep it and go away.

    Start your own forum and if people are interested in your opinion, they would come to you. We all know how to search for information on the internet, so post something and if what you post is worthy, then people will take notice.

    Or you can provide your contact information so people can contact you directly for your opinion and advice. Your are hiding behind your anonimity on this forum and insulting people while magnifying your unprofessionalism at the same time. This forum is not the place to promote yourself or annoy and attack members who are already coping with the suffering in their own bodies or for their loved ones.
    Christy
    Plano, TX
    Surgical dates
    3/25/02 - fused T1-L3, T - 88 degrees
    L - 74 degrees
    7/8/04 - repaired 6 areas of non-union & fused L3-L4
    12/15/05 - fused L4-L5, L5-S1
    2/27/06 - corrected hardware failure
    3/5/06 - corrected hardware issue
    6/16/06 - replaced broken screw in pelvis
    3/9/07 - rear ended auto collision
    2/12/09 - totaled car - someone pulled out in front of me - Yikes!
    3/30/09 - Revision surgery, removed & replaced t12through S1

  4. #34
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    You have collected and recorded data? How many patients are in your study? What parameters are you measuring? What are your controls? Did I not state that there are no studies to show you?

    I haven't contradicted a thing... read my posts in there context and stop trying to create an argument. As I understand it, you don't do anything that isn't published, and I am supportive of a wider range of options that potentially address more than just the symptom. Fair enough?
    Although I know Dr. Coillard and Rivard do surgery when there is no alternative, to say that they don't have much experience with much else is absurd. To imply that you use your hands and they don't is absurd!
    Is "no alternative" the same as 'if the brace fails'? What are their other alternatives? What else are they doing besides bracing? And why have they stopped doing it to those who use the spinecor? Were those other alternatives not effective for them? And of course they use their hands, to hold the scalpel... and I respect them tremendously for that because it has in fact helped many people in need.
    We are not the pioneers. The initial patients were. Yet, I know they were monitored closely for any deterioration in their curves and treament adjusted accordingly. The data was recorded for the statistics that I read before choosing this brace for my child.
    So it's all right for someone elses child to be the test subject with unpredictable outcomes etc... but you wouldn't dare try it until the studies were complete... unbelievable hypocracy! Doctors can prescribe drugs that aren't tested or studied for the intended use, children can be test subjects for an experimental revolutionary brace, ...but I can't suggest to someone to try something that has been very effective at addressing structural/biomechanical/functional imbalances in the human body??? I don't get it? There are even studies that demonstrate its effective at significantly altering primary and secondary curvatures of the spine (those are the lordotic and kyphotic ones) as well as pelvic inclination etc.... and you think that it's far fetched to consider its relevance to scoliosis???

    What about all the people here 'promoting' Pilates, Yoga, PT/Physio, MAT, etc... Are there studies showing the efficacy of those disciplines???? I'm certain there's not. So why not jump on their backs as well...?

    I'm only suggesting things when people ask... for instance: Someone recently asked about swayback and any potential therapies that might help correct it... I suggested " " because it can in fact correct that problem, as demonstrated in a study at the University of Maryland. And if someones in pain and their Dr is suggesting drugs/surgery as the only option, why would you not try something that has shown to be remarkably effective for chronic pain?

  5. #35
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    csbaby,
    You have yet to earn the respect of many on this forum
    You got me on a bad couple of days... I'm so tired of you people attacking others on this forum when their ideas differ from mainstream medical thinking.

    You'd actually be surprised at how many private messages I've received over the last several months from people thanking me for standing up to some of these bullish leaders here. If you actually took the time to read some of my initial posts on this forum you'd see that I had nothing but good and kind-hearted intentions before others began questioning me and throwing personal insults at ME, not the other way around csbaby!

    We all know how to search for information on the internet, so post something and if what you post is worthy, then people will take notice.
    If that were the case, you'd all know that my profession is not afraid whatsoever of scientific analysis! And tell me, why is it that you still know nothing about my profession then?
    Or you can provide your contact information so people can contact you directly for your opinion and advice. Your are hiding behind your anonimity on this forum and insulting people while magnifying your unprofessionalism at the same time. This forum is not the place to promote yourself or annoy and attack members who are already coping with the suffering in their own bodies or for their loved ones.
    When I first joined this forum 9 months ago or so, I made myself completely transparent to everyone by giving all of my personal info in my profile. Soon enough however certain individuals began casting their assumptions that I was "selling" something, even though it was completely unjustified... so I promptly removed my info, partly for that reason so nobody would suspect otherwise. After awhile I realized that I was quickly under attack by a certain few and on further investigation I found that those same people belittled and degraded other forum members, many themselves had scoliosis. I was not about to let you lunatics defame my character with your garbage and nonsense. I had no problem revealing myself until that crap started... so spare me! As far as my professionalism, you have no idea what you're talking about....... .

    As far anything else you wish to share with me on this... let me say a few final things to you.
    1) I have always answered peoples questions directly... I don't avoid them as others do mine.
    2) Hardly anyone can answer a single serious question I ask them, usually following their name calling and insults... I still have the respect to not name call back and get back on topic by trying to further a dialogue... but most people skirt around my questions/points and come right back with an insult again. I've asked some pretty relevant and important questions here I think and if you or any others can't answer them, or feel insecure by them... then maybe it means you should keep doing your talented "searching on the internet". I'm just coming with a different perspective, give it a try and you might actually gain something from it for your own good.
    3) I am NOT promoting myself... Where have I done that????

    What did I do to you csbaby??? And since when was this a forum exclusively for spinecor, surgery and studies???? If people can suggest and even post FLYERS on Yoga and scoliosis, then I feel perfectly able to share my perspective on things. You can't argue with that. And if you people stop jumping on my back we wouldn't be having these negative dialogues... because I'm NOT the one who begins insulting people.

  6. #36
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    In your fantasy world..................................
    God has used scoliosis to strengthen and mold us. He's good all the time!On this forum these larger curves have not held forever in Spinecor,with an initial positive response followed by deterioration. With deterioration, change treatment.The first year she gained 4 or 5 inches and was stable at around 20/20 in brace, followed by rapid progression the next year.She is now 51/40 (Jan2008)out of brace (40/30 in Spinecor) and started at 38/27 out of brace(Jan2006.) Now in Cheneau.

  7. #37
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    csbaby,
    see my point... ?

  8. #38
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    Again, if the PhD's in your profession are having success in their treatments of scoliosis, they sould collect their data and publish. Initial results don't take 10 or 15 years. You can see results in the treatment of adolescent, juvenile and infantile scoliosis in a short amount of time because the scoliotic curve either deteriorates, improves, or stabilizes. These kids are growing and you see one or the other rapidly.

    You also make claims of reversal of adult curves. This should be easy to document and publish. Why is this information not documented and published?

    My questions did not refer to published studies. I fully understand that you can point to NO PUBLISHED studies.

    What parameters are YOU measuring and documenting? What are your controls? How many patients are in your study? If you and/or your colleagues are not currently collecting and recording data for a published study, why not?

    Any valid therapy can stand up to the rigorous guidelines use for a controlled study.
    Last edited by cherylplinder; 06-24-2007 at 03:10 PM.
    God has used scoliosis to strengthen and mold us. He's good all the time!On this forum these larger curves have not held forever in Spinecor,with an initial positive response followed by deterioration. With deterioration, change treatment.The first year she gained 4 or 5 inches and was stable at around 20/20 in brace, followed by rapid progression the next year.She is now 51/40 (Jan2008)out of brace (40/30 in Spinecor) and started at 38/27 out of brace(Jan2006.) Now in Cheneau.

  9. #39
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    Please quote and answer each one of my questions separately, as I would like to fully understand the research you are involved in.
    God has used scoliosis to strengthen and mold us. He's good all the time!On this forum these larger curves have not held forever in Spinecor,with an initial positive response followed by deterioration. With deterioration, change treatment.The first year she gained 4 or 5 inches and was stable at around 20/20 in brace, followed by rapid progression the next year.She is now 51/40 (Jan2008)out of brace (40/30 in Spinecor) and started at 38/27 out of brace(Jan2006.) Now in Cheneau.

  10. #40
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    It seems as though you're completely unwilling to see another perspective on things, despite the reality that it does exist throughout the medical community and practices and that I've made a valid point for it.

    I've already stated there are no formal studies on my profession and scoliosis... What else do you want me say? Yes, I keep records of every case... No they are not published, hasn't that already been established and agreed upon by all of us? Who are you to say what I should do with my time... and findings?
    Are you systematically collecting verifiable data and recording it? Are you then figuring the statistics on your data?
    That is otherwise known as a STUDY! And I already conceeded that there were NO STUDIES!!! Nor am I conducting one!!! How many times are you going to ask the same question? And I'm concerned about the well being of each individual, I have no interest in making my patients "statistics". Although I value studies to a degree, and see their importance... I also think that there's a catch 22 in that when people see a study with certain results they are often led to believe it will work for everyone... which creates a very strong sense of hope that is later shattered for many people.

    At this point I have no problem offering adjunctive treatment to those it is appropriate for and who are seeking it out. I don't make any promises and nobody who comes into my office has a sense of false hope... because they know that it is uncertain, but they also know that their bracing is uncertain as well, despite the studies. And in fact, most of the people who come to see me do so because the bracing and other more conventional and 'approved' methods are FAILING them! Which gives them two choices: 1) Do nothing more and watch the situation get worse until possible surgery or 2) Try the most logical "alternative/complimentary" approach available to them despite the lack of studies or awareness on it.

    If that's not for you, fine... ignore it. But unless YOU have a better answer for these people then I'd appreciate it if you let it go. Their Drs certainly don't have any other solutions other than surgery eventually.

    And if others can advertise, promote and share experiences on other non-surgical adjunctive approaches on this forum without your critical scrutiny, then I'm entitled to the same... especially when I KNOW it to be more effective then all of them combined.

    It seems more like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing rather than taking even a brief moment to consider what I've said. Apperantly if it doesn't come out of Dr Coillards mouth, it is absolutely worthless to you. Which implies that no other Doctor in the world can possibly have anything to say about this condition.(including some of the M.D.s that are in my profession and the M.D.s that utilize it for themselves and refer their patients to it.)
    Dr. Irene Grant is an Internal Medicine and Infectious Disease Specialist in New York City. She is currently on the teaching faculty at Albert Einstein College of Medicine and Assistant Clinical Professor of Medicine at New York Medical College.
    She had a very bad whiplash injury when she was a child, which created problems in her neck, similar to scoliosis. An Osteopath referred her to Structural Integration. Irene says, "After ten sessions I noticed that my posture improved, my chronic neck pain was significantly relieved, and I had much more energy. Further treatments brought progressive freedom. I experienced major changes. The most amazing thing is that I am now pain free."
    Irene has been receiving Structural Integration sessions now weekly, for the past two and a half years. "I am very impressed with Structural Integration and have referred a lot of patients to Structural Integration, including Scoliosis patients. Structural Integration is a wonderful method that can rehabilitate and reverse injuries."
    Maybe you should report this Dr to the board.... she might be harming people.

    p.s.-I've stated many, many times before that you'll see improvement with the work in VERY short time... within the first few weeks... if you don't see an improvement/change then you discontinue. In fact, it will show its effect, if it can in each particular case, much faster than bracing, ...but would be a wonderful adjunct to the bracing nonetheless.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by cherylplinder
    Again, if the PhD's in your profession are having success in their treatments of scoliosis, they sould collect their data and publish. Initial results don't take 10 or 15 years. You can see results in the treatment of adolescent, juvenile and infantile scoliosis in a short amount of time because the scoliotic curve either deteriorates, improves, or stabilizes. These kids are growing and you see one or the other rapidly.

    You also make claims of reversal of adult curves. This should be easy to document and publish. Why is this information not documented and published?

    My questions did not refer to published studies. I fully understand that you can point to NO PUBLISHED studies.

    If you and/or your colleagues are not currently collecting and recording data for a published study, why not?

    Any valid therapy can stand up to the rigorous guidelines used for a controlled study.
    You didn't answer my question. You appear to be evading the question. Why are none of your colleagues publishing?

    Again, if the PhD's in your profession are having success in the treament of scoliosis, they should collect their data and stats and publish.
    Last edited by cherylplinder; 06-24-2007 at 03:45 PM.
    God has used scoliosis to strengthen and mold us. He's good all the time!On this forum these larger curves have not held forever in Spinecor,with an initial positive response followed by deterioration. With deterioration, change treatment.The first year she gained 4 or 5 inches and was stable at around 20/20 in brace, followed by rapid progression the next year.She is now 51/40 (Jan2008)out of brace (40/30 in Spinecor) and started at 38/27 out of brace(Jan2006.) Now in Cheneau.

  12. #42
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    Please answer the question.
    God has used scoliosis to strengthen and mold us. He's good all the time!On this forum these larger curves have not held forever in Spinecor,with an initial positive response followed by deterioration. With deterioration, change treatment.The first year she gained 4 or 5 inches and was stable at around 20/20 in brace, followed by rapid progression the next year.She is now 51/40 (Jan2008)out of brace (40/30 in Spinecor) and started at 38/27 out of brace(Jan2006.) Now in Cheneau.

  13. #43
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    Hi guys

    Structural, I had to jump in and intervene here. I kinda have to laugh at your suggestion that you are not contradicting yourself! A while ago I posted about my experience with the clear institute. You then posted immediately after and expressed your condescending thoughts about how further education would save folks like me from getting sucked into these crazy treatment methods. I forget your wording but the jist of it was that chiropractors cannot help scoliosis. Now I happen to be with you on that! The reason I had to laugh is that in a later unrelated post you produced a case study backing your thoughts on SI. The interesting thing to me was that the SI guy was working with a chiropractor to gain the results suggested in the case study? It's too bad that SI guy didn't have further education because he would have then realized how useless it would be to work in collaboration with a chiroprator! He may have had even better results without the chiro. Or....... he may have had no results at all because it was actually the chiro that inspired the changes.

    Also I have to laugh at this statement I have heard you use a few times now, about not wanting to produce evidence or studies because you don't want to give false hope to those for whom the treatment does not work.
    I am sorry dude, that is totally ridiculous and hugely condescending.
    I have a new invention I just came up with this morning to cure scoliosis called a scolioliminator. It's made from two popsicle sticks and a rubber band. I don't think it is a good idea for me to provide evidence It can work on the 95% of people I treat because I don't want to dissapoint the misfortunate 5%. At times it seems you think you are dealing with a bunch of mentally challenged kindergarden students. I think that is what frosts peoples arse.

    Now funnily enough I personally don't mind having you around on this forum because I think some of us need a bit of a challenge to our beleif sytem and some of the reading makes for a good laugh. I think some of your THEORIES on scoliosis should be considered . But unless we can back them up, maybe we should just leave them as theories in regards to the treatment of scoliosis and try to drop the condescendance towards those who have not yet seen "your light". I am sure as you say that your beliefs in SI are based on seeing reults in your patients and this is why you are so passionate about it. I don't understand why you can't accept that other people would want to see these results as well.
    All the best, Bish

    P.S. I have recently completed my second session with a certified rolfer in my area. Will post my thoughts soon!

  14. #44
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    hey again

    Structural, I forgot to mention its also too bad that the medical sytem is not using my new invention in collaboration with documented forms of treatment like bracing. Imagine the results they could see then!
    Bish

  15. #45
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    bish-
    The interesting thing to me was that the SI guy was working with a chiropractor to gain the results suggested in the case study? It's too bad that SI guy didn't have further education because he would have then realized how useless it would be to work in collaboration with a chiroprator! He may have had even better results without the chiro. Or....... he may have had no results at all because it was actually the chiro that inspired the changes.
    You may not have read it very carefully... it was I believe 9 times that the chiro adjusted her in a period of three years. For the purpose of - "High velocity thrusting procedures were needed to help mobilize those fibrotic and calcified joint capsules". From a professional standpoint, it sounds like an appropriate use of chiropractics! Most chiros would see you 9 times before the first month was up... Give me a break Bish... what's really your point? I don't believe it's black and white as you like to think it is, but many of you can''t seem to cope well with the grey... understandable... .
    Also I have to laugh at this statement I have heard you use a few times now, about not wanting to produce evidence or studies because you don't want to give false hope to those for whom the treatment does not work.
    As I've said many times before, I support studies and hope very much to see them someday soon on SI and scoliosis. My profession is NOT afraid of the scientific process as I've pointed... are you reading everything Bish? Or just the parts that fit into your neat arguments? I never ever stated that I do not want to produce evidence... quote me on that one Bish, would ya. My comment about the false hope was to point out to all of you astute 'fans' of mine that your on my case about "false hope" (even though I don't promise things to people???) because there are no studies, but you'd be on my case as well if there were studies and someone tried it and it proved less than anticipated for that individual. You'd be willing to scrutinize the failure rate more quickly on my profession than you do on bracing... that was my point... but I am NOT opposed to having studies done formally... .

    I have a new invention I just came up with this morning to cure scoliosis called a scolioliminator. It's made from two popsicle sticks and a rubber band. I don't think it is a good idea for me to provide evidence It can work on the 95% of people I treat because I don't want to dissapoint the misfortunate 5%. At times it seems you think you are dealing with a bunch of mentally challenged kindergarden students. I think that is what frosts peoples arse.
    As I said, that was not my point... but thanks for the eloquent analogy. Also, maybe it wouldn't seem that way to you and others if people would actually have a dialogue regarding even one point/idea/question I ask. Are you telling me that I can't raise legitimate questions for others? And they don't have to answer them but I certainly must?
    Now funnily enough I personally don't mind having you around on this forum because I think some of us need a bit of a challenge to our beleif sytem and some of the reading makes for a good laugh. I think some of your THEORIES on scoliosis should be considered . But unless we can back them up, maybe we should just leave them as theories in regards to the treatment of scoliosis and try to drop the condescendance towards those who have not yet seen "your light". I am sure as you say that your beliefs in SI are based on seeing reults in your patients and this is why you are so passionate about it. I don't understand why you can't accept that other people would want to see these results as well.
    I'm glad you find it humorous Bish... I understand the desire for studies... I really do and I'd like them myself as well. But my main point has been that not one of you out there can assert that just because no large formal study exists the work is not already effective. Plain and simple. Theories... "Backing them up" isn't solely accomplished through studies Bish... I think we all know that. As much as you may not like 'clinical evidence', it is very much a reality and can not be dismissed due to a lack of a study.

    As for my "condescendance" towards others... I think you know that I have no intention of talking down to people or insulting their intelligence. But I have had absolutely no choice but to defend myself, rather passionately and with intensity at times following their insulting remarks. I have put forth many initial posts on this forum that were kind, sincere and respectful... but it gets 'ugly' when someone jumps on my back and refuses to hear my side as well. And that is almost always the case... nobody is willing to actually HEAR and reflect on what I'm saying.. that just respond with the same remarks over and over.

    And I do absolutely understand why these folks would want to see the results... But I'm sorry I can't give you that info personally. My patients would NOT appreciate me posting their personal info all over the internet, even if the cause were good. And again, if I posted clinical info/pitcures of a few patients for you to see I'd have everyone coming down on me saying that "a few isn't good enough"... Isn't that the truth Bish?

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