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Thread: Osteopathy and Scoliosis

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerbo
    how to define one of those; is a raindroptherapist a professional, a colourtherapist, a palmreader, a chiropracter?? It is an empty meaningless term and as a label covers lots of sins and bad practice.......
    As is the term 'Doctor'... Is it not? Is every M.D. out there under this title honest, competent, responsible and trustworthy? ...Not quite! Does that mean they're all 'sinners' practicing "bad" medicine... not quite!

    I'm sorry if you can't distinguish the difference between palm readers and Osteopathic Physicians.

  2. #17
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    did I mention Osteopaths??

  3. #18
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    Well, then what were you suggesting by that comment? Because I wasn't defending or trying to establish 'professional' credibility and relevance for a"raindroptherapist, a colourtherapist, a palmreader, a chiropracter". The topic of this thread is Osteopathy and assertions have been made against "manual" intervention.

  4. #19
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    If anyone is making assertions, it's YOU! There is no proof that manual therapy works other than to make one *feel* better perhaps and a lot of this would depend on the appearance of the manual practitioner



    *
    Last edited by Celia; 06-22-2007 at 03:06 PM.

    Canadian eh
    Daughter, Deirdre born Oct 2000. Diagnosed with 60 degree curve at the age of 19 months. Serial casting by Dr. Hedden at Sick Kid's Hospital. Currently being treated by Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard in Montreal with the Spinecor brace and curve is holding at "2" degrees. Next appointment 2008

  5. #20
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    That's cute Celia...

    Quote Originally Posted by Celia Vogel
    If anyone is making assertions, it's YOU! There is no proof that manual therapy works other than to make one *feel* better perhaps and a lot of this would depend on the appearance of the manual practitioner
    That's because I actually have a basis for my assertions! I have clinical experience with this as do many other practitioners in specific disciplines which shall remain nameless. Remember, just because there isn't a formal study for you to read doesn't mean it hasn't happened in clinical settings.
    For example, I have had several patients who take a prescription nerve drug that was designed and tested for shingles and diabetic peripheral nerve pain, yet it works quite well for them even though they don't have either of those conditions and there are NO, ZERO, ZILCH studies to "prove" it will help them... and their DOCTORS are prescribing it despite not being tested or studied for 'other' conditions because they've found it to be effective. This type of practice is happening on a daily basis in the medical world.... How is that any different than this? Are you telling me that because there are no studies on the prescribed use of these drugs that they aren't working for these people? If so, then why do the DRs continue to prescribe them? ...You are intentionally turning a blind eye to the reality and logic here... You can't possibly 'assert' that certain types of manual therapy are a "waste of time and money" simply because studies haven't been performed... That's rediculous!

    Where is your "evidence" to show that certain types of manual therapy are NOT effective? Or are YOU just making "assertions"???

    p.s. - Are you also asserting in your 'original' post that all types of manual therapy are a form of massage (your reference to a "masseuse"???)? Sorry, but wrong again... massage will do nothing but possibly provide temporary relief from some pain, circulate blood and stimulate relaxation.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by structural75

    Also, it seems quite interesting to me that the Montreal Drs don't advise ANY additional therapies/exercises for their spinecor patients, despite the fact that the company that makes the brace does recommend certain exercises. It is apparent that if their patients utilized any other methods in combination with the brace it would exclude them from their sterile ongoing study with the spinecor. You can't have some people using the brace exclusively and others doing additional things as well and get accurate conclusions on its effectiveness. I believe strongly that is why they are opposed to things such as osteopathy, etc... I can see no other reason for restricting all of their patients from utilizing adjunctive approaches. All in the name of science and a 'study' to please the manufacturer that they have a business deal with.

    Structural
    Structural,

    Are you aware that Dr. Christine Coillard did her PhD in the biomechanics of the spine and is the designer and developer of the brace? From what I understand, others have tried to tack on additional therapies to the brace, but initial results idicated that they were not necessarily effective and possibly detrimental. You should get your facts straight before you start shooting off.
    God has used scoliosis to strengthen and mold us. He's good all the time!On this forum these larger curves have not held forever in Spinecor,with an initial positive response followed by deterioration. With deterioration, change treatment.The first year she gained 4 or 5 inches and was stable at around 20/20 in brace, followed by rapid progression the next year.She is now 51/40 (Jan2008)out of brace (40/30 in Spinecor) and started at 38/27 out of brace(Jan2006.) Now in Cheneau.

  7. #22
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    Cheryl to the rescue...
    Quote Originally Posted by Cherylplinder
    You should get your facts straight before you start shooting off.
    Likewise...

    The following is from the spinecorporation website, makers of the spinecor brace.
    The SpineCor Physiotherapy Program has been designed to complement the action of the brace and reinforce the principles of the treatment.

    Precise exercises have been designed for each type of scoliosis curve, according to the specific spine deformation and postural disorganization of the patient.

    Patients treated with the SpineCor® brace must only carry out the exercises exclusively designed for his/her type of scoliosis curve to avoid interfering with the action of the brace.

    Patients treated with the SpineCor® brace must not carry out any other exercises program than the one designed to be performed in conjunction with the SpineCor® brace treatment.

    Therefore, all physiotherapists working with patients treated with the SpineCor® System must follow a specific SpineCor Physiotherapy Training Program, in order to learn the treatment principles and understand the new treatment approach, to be accredited as Authorized SpineCor Physiotherapists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cherylplinder
    Are you aware that Dr. Christine Coillard did her PhD in the biomechanics of the spine and is the designer and developer of the brace?
    Yes, indeed I am. Are you aware that Dr. Coillard is not the only person with a PhD in the biomechanics of the spine? Is she the only qualified expert in spinal mechanics? Is Dr. Coillard also an expert on Osteopathic manipulative medicine and technique? What does she know about manipulation?...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cherylplinder
    From what I understand, others have tried to tack on additional therapies to the brace, but initial results idicated that they were not necessarily effective and possibly detrimental.
    Detrimental? Why would the manufacturer of the prestigious spinecor brace (Dr. Coillard's 'personal creation' mind you) develop and recommend a physiotherapy program to accompany its use if it were detrimental? Wouldn't Dr. Coillard have an interest in stopping such 'harmful' practices being promoted by the company that makes her brace?

    Hmmmmm..... Again... "You should get your facts straight before you start shooting off."

  8. #23
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    I just laugh at you now. You are full of a lot of hot air. lol
    My child has really been helped by the brace. I know Dr. Coillard and Dr. Rivard personally. I am a REALLY GOOD judge of people. I have a natural ability to discern integrity and character. Two finer physicians do not exist.
    I feel confident that a woman with a PhD in the biomechanics of the spine knows more about what is best for my child and others than you do.
    I am completely comfortable trusting her and Dr. Rivard. COMPLETELY!
    I have already experienced results that were deemed not possible a year ago, according to the available studies. So have many others that post on this forum.
    I am still tired of you.
    You promised not to post anymore. You can't keep your word, I guess.
    Go ahead and reply. I'm laughing at you.
    Last edited by cherylplinder; 06-22-2007 at 08:08 PM.
    God has used scoliosis to strengthen and mold us. He's good all the time!On this forum these larger curves have not held forever in Spinecor,with an initial positive response followed by deterioration. With deterioration, change treatment.The first year she gained 4 or 5 inches and was stable at around 20/20 in brace, followed by rapid progression the next year.She is now 51/40 (Jan2008)out of brace (40/30 in Spinecor) and started at 38/27 out of brace(Jan2006.) Now in Cheneau.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    Cheryl to the rescue...
    Gerbo and Celia are amazing friends. I would defend them if they needed it. And you are quite obnoxious in your posts to them. But they don't need my protection or defense, thank you. They are quite capable of defending themselves.
    But occasionally I read what you post and feel compelled to respond to your lunacy.
    God has used scoliosis to strengthen and mold us. He's good all the time!On this forum these larger curves have not held forever in Spinecor,with an initial positive response followed by deterioration. With deterioration, change treatment.The first year she gained 4 or 5 inches and was stable at around 20/20 in brace, followed by rapid progression the next year.She is now 51/40 (Jan2008)out of brace (40/30 in Spinecor) and started at 38/27 out of brace(Jan2006.) Now in Cheneau.

  10. #25
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    I don't know what Rachel's results will be in July. She has given me a little trouble occasionally this round about wearing her brace, and has not been as faithful this time. If her results this time are less than optimal, I will attribute it to that. She has grown very little this round.
    I will always be grateful for the 4 inches she grew without progressing. She has a very short torso anyway, and proportion was an issue for me, if she had to be fused this year. Four inches is half of the amount she needed to grow to reach her mature height. She only lacks about 4 more , I think. That is, if she is destined to be my height.
    God has used scoliosis to strengthen and mold us. He's good all the time!On this forum these larger curves have not held forever in Spinecor,with an initial positive response followed by deterioration. With deterioration, change treatment.The first year she gained 4 or 5 inches and was stable at around 20/20 in brace, followed by rapid progression the next year.She is now 51/40 (Jan2008)out of brace (40/30 in Spinecor) and started at 38/27 out of brace(Jan2006.) Now in Cheneau.

  11. #26
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    You are full of a lot of hot air.
    What specifically are you refering to as "hot air"?
    My child has really been helped by the brace. I know Dr. Coillard and Dr. Rivard personally. I am a REALLY GOOD judge of people. I have a natural ability to discern integrity and character. Two finer physicians do not exist.
    I have never discredited the brace Cheryl. In fact I've praised their contribution to the bracing world... I do feel it is one of the best bracing options, if not the best, for those who qualify. It was a long time coming but at least it's finally here. And frankly, you know absolutely nothing about me other than I'm someone who will passionately stand up for the minorities. You have a "natural ability"... ??? Well, it's not working at the moment because you've got me all wrong. If you can't see that I'm simply defending people's right to have options and opinions without being degraded or discredited, then you've been blinded by the 'light'.
    I feel confident that a woman with a PhD in the biomechanics of the spine knows more about what is best for my child and others than you do.
    I'm not suggesting what's best for your child... when did your child enter into all this? I have a right to respond to peoples inquiries about what is available to them when other more conventional routes aren't working very well. If you don't like it, tough. And regardless of her abilities as a Doctor, that still doesn't make her the authority on everything that exists in the world. I think you've mistaken her with God. (p.s. - The creator/inventer/mind behind the profession that I practice was also a PhD... in biochemistry and physiology... I'd put a wee bit of trust in her work as well )
    I have already experienced results that were deemed not possible a year ago, according to the available studies. So have many others that post on this forum.
    Wait a minute... Isn't that my line... . Isn't that what I'm defending here? I'm trying to let people know that studies do not reveal ALL of the potential and relevant adjunct treatment options available... So here I've been making suggestions to folks and you and your "friends" come down on me because the formal studies aren't "available"... But it's OK for you and "many others" to take that route, as long as you all support each other, right? So I present something that YOU deem is not possible and I should pipe down, but you do something that's deemed impossible according to the studies and it's OK.??????? Talk about lunacy!

    ...you are quite obnoxious in your posts to them.
    And you all are NOT to begin with??? I'm not the one name calling Cheryl. You just don't like that I won't let you people push good folks around. Maybe if you were a little more secure about yourself you wouldn't feel the need to attack those with differing opinions.
    I am still tired of you.
    You promised not to post anymore. You can't keep your word, I guess.
    Yes I did promise, but if I don't defend these absurd and slanderous remarks aimed at debunking anything you elites don't choose to consider for yourselves, then who will? Have you ever thought of how many people out there are afraid to post on this forum because they know you people are right there ready to belittle them if they ask a question about this stuff. Besides, you people have shown me virtually no respect, if at all... since when does my "word" mean a darn thing to you?

    Continue to humor me.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    What specifically are you refering to as "hot air"?

    I'm not suggesting what's best for your child... when did your child enter into all this?
    Are you or are you not disagreeing with Dr. Coillard's stand on other treatments in combination with the Spinecor?

    Are you or are you not suggesting that she is wrong?

    I was merely responding to your lack of confidence in her stance as it would apply to my child. Your comments do apply to her. My child is in the Spinecor brace and Dr. Coillard is her physician.

    My confidence is in this amazing physician that has proven her knowledge and ability in an amazing brace.

    You are correct. I have absolutely no confidence in you. Are you published? I would be happy to read and evaluate your work.
    Last edited by cherylplinder; 06-23-2007 at 10:30 AM.
    God has used scoliosis to strengthen and mold us. He's good all the time!On this forum these larger curves have not held forever in Spinecor,with an initial positive response followed by deterioration. With deterioration, change treatment.The first year she gained 4 or 5 inches and was stable at around 20/20 in brace, followed by rapid progression the next year.She is now 51/40 (Jan2008)out of brace (40/30 in Spinecor) and started at 38/27 out of brace(Jan2006.) Now in Cheneau.

  13. #28
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    Do you always forget what the conversation is about?
    God has used scoliosis to strengthen and mold us. He's good all the time!On this forum these larger curves have not held forever in Spinecor,with an initial positive response followed by deterioration. With deterioration, change treatment.The first year she gained 4 or 5 inches and was stable at around 20/20 in brace, followed by rapid progression the next year.She is now 51/40 (Jan2008)out of brace (40/30 in Spinecor) and started at 38/27 out of brace(Jan2006.) Now in Cheneau.

  14. #29
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    Do you always forget what the conversation is about?
    ??? No, not at all. My latest leap into this thread followed Celia's posting on "Manual Therapy" and it's unvalidated efficacy in the treatment, adjunct or otherwise, of ideopathic scoliosis... She concluded that because there were no studies definitively concluding its efficacy, then that was the equivilant to a "waste of time and money".

    That was what the conversation was about to begin with. Where's the confusion?
    Are you or are you not disagreeing with her stand on other treatments in combination with the Spinecor?

    Are you or are you not suggesting that she is wrong?
    I can respect her decision, but it doesn't mean that it is the ONLY decision that could be made. As far as other treatments with spincor... the DRs in Montreal choose not to utilize anything else and the brace manufacturer recommends otherwise. That's pretty much all that I'm saying. Once again, I don't believe that there is a definitive right or wrong answer here.. but others seem to think there is. So be it!
    I was merely responding to your lack of confidence in her stance as it would apply to my child. Your comments do apply to her.
    I don't lack confidence in the parents here... you're doing the best you possibly can given the information you have and deem valid. I expect more from the "finest" physicians around... I admire their work, but I don't close the door on everything else. That's pure ignorance and arrogance.
    You are correct. I have absolutely no confidence in you. Are you published? I would be happy to read and evaluate your work.
    Again, I don't care Cheryl. I'm not here to gain your approval or confidence. And who are you to be qualified to evaluate my work??? Theories and writing are lovely, but the real evidence comes through the work. You can talk about this stuff all you want, but at the end of the day people want to feel and see the difference. That's what I'm most concerned with right now.

  15. #30
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    Statistics speak for themselves. Any reasonable, rational, intelligent person can read and evaluate a well done study with statistics and supportive evidence. Dr. Coillard is published many times over. I value her opinion on the further treatment of my child and on any treatment of her scoliosis that I consider.
    So what do you mean "Who are you to be qualified to evaluate my work?"

    I just asked, since you disagree with Dr. Coillard's recommendations, if you were also published. In other words, what are your qualifications that I would take your recommendation over hers! It is a reasonable question, if you expect me to consider your advice and berate me for not considering your opinion over hers.

    People may "feel and see the difference" but there are objective parameters that should be measured and documented to support any therapy. Where are your documented, published objective parameters that support your recommendations?
    Last edited by cherylplinder; 06-23-2007 at 12:19 AM.
    God has used scoliosis to strengthen and mold us. He's good all the time!On this forum these larger curves have not held forever in Spinecor,with an initial positive response followed by deterioration. With deterioration, change treatment.The first year she gained 4 or 5 inches and was stable at around 20/20 in brace, followed by rapid progression the next year.She is now 51/40 (Jan2008)out of brace (40/30 in Spinecor) and started at 38/27 out of brace(Jan2006.) Now in Cheneau.

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