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Thread: Osteopathy and Scoliosis

  1. #76
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    Cheryl, I just received a couple of edited/revised versions of one of your previous posts.... Now your changing your posts to fit the argument you put forth? And in the meantime trying to make me sound contradictory. Are you going to answer any of my questions or just manipulate your posts until you're out of the hole you dug?

    At least have some integrity and stand behind your original thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheryl
    If you looked back at my posts about Rachel, you will see that she was quite debilitated by pain. The brace completely relieved her pain. It isn't that much of a stretch to apply it to adults. It may be a new application for the brace. I am SURE studies will be done to determine if that is a valid application of this therapy!

    But Structural, I will be completely honest with you. I was intrigued by the idea of SI. That is why I asked Celia if Dr. Coillard expounded on her answer. But after my conversation with you, I think it is probably a ripoff. I don't see how any legitimate therapy can be around for 35 or 50 or 60 years with the success you claim, and have absolutely NO formal studies done. It really discredits your profession. No wonder Dr. Coillard said "No way..." No sane physician is going to DIRECT a patient into quackery or what MIGHT be that. Without studies, she can't tell what it might do.

    It would be lovely to have something else to address the problems. Rachel is only corrected to 20 degrees or so.
    "New" relative to what... ? It has been used by Drs other than yours for this prupose for at least a few years now... Long enough for a study, wouldn't you say? And why is it being used (with your support obviously) if it hasn't undergone the 'scientific' rigors of analysis? Isn't that what your asking of SI before it is suggested for use?

    If you call what we had a conversation.... more like an absolute dismissal without doing your homework first.

    Dr. Coillard said "No way" to OSTEOPATHIC MANIPULATION! Not SI! But I'm sure she'd say the same for SI, or ANY adjunct treatment... We won't know unless she herself gives a reason. ...That was the topic here and I was defending Ost. Man. as a legitimate profession as well.

    And do you know just how many "sane Physicians" have actually referred people to SI? Quite a few... Did you not read the testimonial I posted earlier? ....And that includes the Physicians who practice this work as well.

  2. #77
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    Maybe this would help you see it is not what you think it is.
    Health Professionals

    Larry Dossey, M.D., best-selling author: "There is one major reason to take Rolfing® seriously: it works. Not only can it dramatically change people's bodies, it can transform their lives as well. Rolfing is powerful stuff."

    Jim Mongomery, MD, an orthopedic surgeon in Dallas, Texas, often refers his clients to Rolfing. "I send a variety of my clients to a Certified Advanced Rolfer, Nicholas French. People with shoulder and elbow problems, with scar tissue resulting from injury or surgery, chronic hamstring problems, low back and cervical spine problems. People that have had chronic problems that have not been helped by anything else. All those people can be helped with Rolfing."

    Karlis Ullis, MD, (team physician for 1992 summer Olympics), Sports Medicine and Anti-Aging Medical Group in Santa Monica, CA: "Athletes always need help with chronic injuries, muscular strains and overuse. The Olympic athletes wouldn't have as many injuries if they had appropriate soft tissue therapy. Rolfing is valuable for athletes in high level competition to address the build up of scar tissue and disarrangement of myofascial tissue that occurs from training, competition and injury." Dr. Ullis has provided medical expertise to athletes at five Olympic games, including Lillehammer, Albertville, and Barcelona, in the fields of figure skating, cross country skiing, bobsleigh, biathlon, track and field and other sports.

    Certified Advanced Rolfer and MD, Dr. Bret Nye, speaks about alternative/complementary medicine, a cost effective, alternative to surgery and drugs - "Demand for the services of health practitioners like Rolfers is growing as evidenced by the Nov. 98 JAMA estimate of $21.2 billion being spent for alternative medicine in 97. Integrative health care, is a new trend, that combines Western and complementary medicines to offer the best technological advances in health care. Health insurance companies are increasingly becoming interested in therapies like Rolfing not only as potential cost effective alternatives or complements to traditional modalities, but as opportunities to provide coverage for services that will distinguish them in an increasingly competitive market place of providers."

    Others

    Leon Fleisher, virtuoso concert pianist: "When a crippling hand injury ended his performing career, Peabody pianist, Leon Fleisher went down a different musical road. Thirty years later, he's turned up an unexpected corner (when he met Certified Advanced Rolfer, Tessy Brunghardt)...The (Rolfing) results were remarkable." John Hopkins magazine, 1995.

    A 50 yr old scientist, and medical consultant for healthcare manufacturers, Jim Wright had planned to live with his shoulder, neck and back problems until his wife suggested Rolfing. The problems were allieviated and he sees his Rolfer once a year for a tune up.

    Mary Elizabeth Nordstrom, President, Moore Vocal Arts, says, "I am over 60 years old and have advanced scoliosis which the Rolfing treatments have definitely begun to help. One of my friends who had not seen me for awhile remarked on my better posture without my telling her why.

  3. #78
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    Sounds lovely, still needs a scientific study. Personal testimonies can be very unreliable. I saw recently where the names changed on personal testimonies with each product, but the pictures stayed the same. Has to be better than that. Still doesn't address scoliosis.
    God has used scoliosis to strengthen and mold us. He's good all the time!On this forum these larger curves have not held forever in Spinecor,with an initial positive response followed by deterioration. With deterioration, change treatment.The first year she gained 4 or 5 inches and was stable at around 20/20 in brace, followed by rapid progression the next year.She is now 51/40 (Jan2008)out of brace (40/30 in Spinecor) and started at 38/27 out of brace(Jan2006.) Now in Cheneau.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheryl
    There is a list of Spinecor providers on the spinecorporation.com wesite. I'll see if I can copy and post. I would have sworn Dr. Coillard told me they were having some success with it in adult patients to treat pain, but she may not have meant at their clinic, because someone contacted them , I think.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheryl
    Sounds lovely, still needs a scientific study. Personal testimonies can be very unreliable. ...Has to be better than that.
    You said it best Cheryl... Glad you caught yourself on that one.

    p.s. - So you're telling me those are unreliable and fake testimonials? Wow, substantiate that please.

    Also, other members of this forum have reported a positive experience with SI, are you calling them liars now too? Is your opinion on the spinecor braces effectiveness for addressing pain a 'reliable' source? Where are the studies showing its efficacy and safety in regards to adult use for pain management??? Oh, there are no studies on that as well... Once again I'll use your words: "Sounds lovely, still needs a scientific study. Personal testimonies can be very unreliable."

    Do you even understand WHY the a brace can sometimes help reduce pain? I do..., but I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.

    You continue to evade my questions and points Cheryl... It's not looking very good.
    Last edited by structural75; 06-26-2007 at 08:54 PM.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheryl
    Still dosn't address scoliosis
    Maybe you missed this one...
    Mary Elizabeth Nordstrom, President, Moore Vocal Arts, says, "I am over 60 years old and have advanced scoliosis which the Rolfing treatments have definitely begun to help. One of my friends who had not seen me for awhile remarked on my better posture without my telling her why.
    And this one, a case study on a 13 year old girl with scoliosis...
    http://erikdalton.com/articles.htm#S...20Case%20Study
    Or, maybe try this.....
    http://www.massageandbodywork.com/Ar...anagement.html
    Or this one again....
    Dr. Irene Grant is an Internal Medicine and Infectious Disease Specialist in New York City. She is currently on the teaching faculty at Albert Einstein College of Medicine and Assistant Clinical Professor of Medicine at New York Medical College.
    She had a very bad whiplash injury when she was a child, which created problems in her neck, similar to scoliosis. An Osteopath referred her to Structural Integration. Irene says, "After ten sessions I noticed that my posture improved, my chronic neck pain was significantly relieved, and I had much more energy. Further treatments brought progressive freedom. I experienced major changes. The most amazing thing is that I am now pain free."
    Irene has been receiving Structural Integration sessions now weekly, for the past two and a half years. "I am very impressed with Structural Integration and have referred a lot of patients to Structural Integration, including Scoliosis patients. Structural Integration is a wonderful method that can rehabilitate and reverse injuries."
    Or this...
    Project: Children’s Project; three year pilot study in Philadelphia, PA conducted by a group of Rolfers led by Robert Toporek, 1978; monograph “The Promise of Rolfing Children” reported on this study published in 1981. Each child’s photograph before Session 1 and after Session 10 and some two and three years later were shown. A summary of results gathered from interviewing the parents and Rolfer’s comments documented the changes.

    Result: This pilot study with children demonstrated that:

    A dramatic improvement in the children’s physical, psychological and behavioral patterns had occurred
    Consistently parents reported the children had increased confidence, better verbal expression, more self-control and less destructive behavior.
    Rolfing is an effective means to address conditions such as cerebral palsy and scoliosis.
    Are you still going to claim that SI/Rolfing has no relevant application to scoliosis or the chronic pain(s) often associated with it?
    Last edited by structural75; 06-27-2007 at 12:13 AM.

  6. #81
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    Okay, I think I just came up with a solution here... now it doesn't have any studies supporting it but 'some people' said they 'heard' it has worked for some. I think I can get your vote on this one too Cheryl, even without the studies... Here it is: Any time you're in pain, whatever the cause might be, just put on the spinecor brace. Voila! Problems solved! Trust me, I heard it from Dr. Coillard who heard it from someone else... very reliable sources. And even though it says nothing at all about what is causing the pain/problem... who cares anyway... its the spinecor brace created by Dr. Coillard!

    That's all I can come up with unless you can think of anything better... ?

  7. #82
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    Another deleted post... what's going on... did you realize that it didn't answer any questions again and was simply meant to provoke me? Sorry, but I had to respond. This is almost like a dream... nothing seems to be making sense.. you say something, I point out the extreme hypocracy and you act as though there was no hypocracy whatsoever... do you have special privileges? I would expect more integrity from you given your tenacity on the matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheryl
    Someone contacted them and asked if they were a brace provider for adults and
    were told "No."............. Not ...........someone contacted them and gave a
    testimonial that the brace worked for adult pain.
    Sorry to burst your bubble.
    Sorry to burst my bubble.... what bubble is that may I ask?
    I thought...."Personal testimonies can be very unreliable. ...Has to be better than that". ...
    I actually think, as I said before, that testimonials are one of our greatest indicators. That's great that it helped with their pain... I don't doubt it.

    So what was the problem with the testimonials that I posted? ...I forgot what you said... oh, it was, "Personal testimonies can be very unreliable. ...Has to be better than that". I think you bursted your own bubble because by your standards personal testimonies are "unreliable". So as "lovely" as that account was, "still needs a scientific study"... to quote you again.

    p.s. - Lots of people have done the same with regards to SI & scoliosis. ..."Sorry to burst your bubble." ...and SI is a tad bit more specific in addressing the problem at hand... but if you want to believe a brace is somehow the miracle cure for everything, go ahead. Who's really the quack?
    Last edited by structural75; 06-26-2007 at 09:54 PM.

  8. #83
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    No Structural. It made a point of what you twisted in my post. You indicated that someone contacted them with a testimonial. That's not what I posted to Bish. I was telling him that they were not a provider for adults. Someone contacted them and asked.

    But I decided to stop this conversation, so I deleted my post.
    God has used scoliosis to strengthen and mold us. He's good all the time!On this forum these larger curves have not held forever in Spinecor,with an initial positive response followed by deterioration. With deterioration, change treatment.The first year she gained 4 or 5 inches and was stable at around 20/20 in brace, followed by rapid progression the next year.She is now 51/40 (Jan2008)out of brace (40/30 in Spinecor) and started at 38/27 out of brace(Jan2006.) Now in Cheneau.

  9. #84
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    Cheryl,
    I don't believe I twisted anything whatsoever... I was being sarcastic... . My point was that you seem to think it's OK to recommend the spinecor brace for use in adults for treating pain, despite there not being any studies to support it... supposedly because it's not a "stretch". But you don't believe it's OK for me to suggest the use of SI/Rolfing to address pain in adults with scoliosis, or for use with anyone with a scoliosis for any reason, without studies. ...Hypocrisy plain and simple.

    You can't sit there and drum up a multi-page debate with me on the relevance of SI and scoliosis because there are no formal studies.... and then turn around and recommend/suggest the possible use of the spinecor brace to treat pain associated with scoliosis in adults without studies to prove its efficacy/safety. That's absurd logic. If you're going to hold others to a certain standard then you have no choice but to hold yourself to it as well. If not, well then it doesn't matter what you think about SI or Osteopathy... You're talking out of both sides of your mouth, plain and simple.
    Last edited by structural75; 06-26-2007 at 11:50 PM.

  10. #85
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    I've responded to all your points numerous times with my opinion and your own facts. I am entitiled to that. I still think the same thing. I won't state it again.
    God has used scoliosis to strengthen and mold us. He's good all the time!On this forum these larger curves have not held forever in Spinecor,with an initial positive response followed by deterioration. With deterioration, change treatment.The first year she gained 4 or 5 inches and was stable at around 20/20 in brace, followed by rapid progression the next year.She is now 51/40 (Jan2008)out of brace (40/30 in Spinecor) and started at 38/27 out of brace(Jan2006.) Now in Cheneau.

  11. #86
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    Cheryl,
    Fine, if you say so. I must be missing an entire page of posts then....

  12. #87
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    Is SI/ Rolfing the same as "Bowen" therapy?

    (discussed "Bowen" with a therapist yesterday)

  13. #88
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    Sep 2006
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    Gerbo,
    No, completely unrelated... In fact they don't resemble one another whatsoever... also, in Bowen the client is passive the entire time, in SI they are very much an active part of the work... . From what I've experienced with it and from what some clients of mine had reported, it seems to be mostly effecting the autonomic nervous sysytem... parasympathetic and sympathetic balancing. I had one client recently who came to me with severe back apin and two frozen shoulders, 5 years post-operative. She had tried Bowen but it didn't seem to have any effect on the frozen shoulders but did offer temporary relief of some of the back pain. For what that's worth.

    Bowen Technique was created by an australian I believe... Usually consists of light touch/contact points.... then the practitioner leaves the room and lets you lay there while your nervous system supposedly 'resets' itself...

    I won't comment any further on that one..
    Last edited by structural75; 06-27-2007 at 05:31 PM.

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