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Thread: Osteopathy and Scoliosis

  1. #1
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    Osteopathy and Scoliosis

    Hey all,

    I've made an appointment with a local osteopath that specializes in pediatrics and infants. This particular doctor is an instructor at the local Osteopathic school so she must know what she's doing. Our appointment is scheduled for July 9 and I'll let you all know how it goes! I'm planning to check in with drs Rivard and Coillard to make sure it's okay and I'm not doing more harm. I'm pretty sure osteopathy doesn't involve back cracking because if it does I'm out of there! I don't know why I feel as though I'm treading in uncharted
    waters...it could be there are no studies to comfort me.

    I was intrigued by the following articles. Does anyone know what CMM entails?

    1: Stud Health Technol Inform. 2002;91:365-8. Links

    Reversal of the signs and symptoms of moderately severe idiopathic scoliosis in response to physical methods.


    Hawes MC, Brooks WJ.
    Department of Plant Pathology, University of Arizona, Tucson AZ 85721, USA.

    This report describes improved signs and symptoms of previously untreated symptomatic spinal deformity in an adult female diagnosed with moderately severe thoracic scoliosis at the age of .7 years. Current treatment initiated at the age of forty included massage therapy, manual traction, ischemic pressure, and comprehensive manipulative medicine (CMM). A left-right chest circumference inequity was reduced by >10 cm, in correlation with improved appearance of the ribcage deformity and a 40% reduction in magnitude of Cobb angle, which had been stable for 30 years. The changes occurred gradually over an eight-year period, with the most rapid improvement occurring during two periods when CMM was employed.

    PMID: 15457757 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE


    http://www.osteopathiccenter.org/scoliosis.html
    Last edited by Celia; 06-04-2007 at 11:40 AM.

    Canadian eh
    Daughter, Deirdre born Oct 2000. Diagnosed with 60 degree curve at the age of 19 months. Serial casting by Dr. Hedden at Sick Kid's Hospital. Currently being treated by Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard in Montreal with the Spinecor brace and curve is holding at "2" degrees. Next appointment 2008

  2. #2
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    Celia...

    Osteopathy usually involves at least mild manipulation.

    Martha Hawes, who authored the study you quote, was also the subject. Reducing her curve was practically a full-time pursuit for the treatment period. I've not heard whether she's continued the treatment, or whether her curve has returned if she's discontinued treatment. It's frustrating to me, that all these miraculous results are never followed up to tell us what happens when the treatment is stopped.

    --Linda

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    Linda R,
    Please consider this a 'post script' to my 'official last post' on this forum. I couldn't help but say a couple of things for two reasons... 1) Regardless of personal beliefs, opinions, experiences, limitations, etc., I think it's due time to at least open a healthy dialog on other topics that are very closely related to bracing effects. (I applaud Celia for that, regardless of the outcomes) and 2)It's also about time that we begin thinking critically with both studies and clinical experiences at hand... and consider options that are viable adjuncts by learning about them first and then deciding for yourselves whether or not it makes sense to try it. What osteopaths do could, and often does, address/free restrictions within the body that would then allow the bracing to work more effectively. I see no reason why that would be considered rubbish.

    Quote Originally Posted by Linda Racine
    Osteopathy usually involves at least mild manipulation.
    Actually it depends quite a bit on the Osteopath... Many do not do high velocity adjustments ("manipulation" applies to all of the work they do, not just 'boney' adjustments/'cracking'). Some work only with indirect technique, etc... . The main emphasis in manipulative osteopathy is the soft tissue body... parietal, visceral and neural membranes as the three primary categories. If bony adjustments are made using HVLA adjustments, it will only constitute a small fraction of the treatment time... and if one would prefer not to get such adjustments (which is why many see an osteopath rather than a chiropractor) they just need to tell the osteopath. Also, 'cracking' bones is only one method of moving them... the more skilled method is the precise manipulation (not cracking) of the peri-articular tissues around the joint. It is very gentle, non forceful and usually longer lasting in its effect, since that is ultimately what is positioning the bones.

    Be very careful not to try and compare osteopathy to chiropractics... they are not related in the least bit, neither in theory or practice. Yes, osteopaths were the first to move bones in the body, but it isn't the cornerstone of their premise. Let's not use comments like that Linda to discourage people... what would be your suggestion in this case? See another scoliosis surgical specialist? Take drugs??? Bracing is already being utilized with good initial success but the cause has yet to be addressed (which a 'hands-on' approach may be able to reveal, in part at least). We'll never know unless we take our hands out of our pockets... (I picture these Drs standing around a piece of silk draped over their desk... theorizing and speculating about what it feels like... sticking specimens under microscopes with tweezers, poking it with their pens, taking photographs.... you get the idea... just pick it up already. )

    Quote Originally Posted by Linda Racine
    It's frustrating to me, that all these miraculous results are never followed up to tell us what happens when the treatment is stopped.
    What would make the results so "miraculous"? Because someone could accomplish with their hands what bracing accomplishes with plastic, nylon and metal? Sounds even more miraculous that we get any results at all from the generalized and forceful approach of bracing.??? But we do... so it's not that miraculous that a skilled and intelligent human being may at times accomplish the same, especially when working in combination. You'd get the consistency maintained by the brace and the precise unwinding by the hand... sounds reasonable.

    Linda we must not forget that there are causes for this condition and we can't continue to ignore that aspect of it. Those causes, at least the majority of them, are unique to each person... no study will ever uncover the ONE universal cause of ideopathic scoliosis. So unless we start to consider other options as adjuncts, we'll never have much of a chance to gain ground in that realm. We'll be left treating the symptoms for another 50 years. And if we want more studies, why not be a part of it? Some people would have to do it. Seriously, we can't read about studies on its effectiveness until folks are willing to give these things a try... and it isn't quite fair to say 'well, let someone else try it first'.

    It may not be suitable for everyone, but neither are drugs and surgery.

    I'm sure you'll have a response for me... that's fine. But I feel I owed this reply to Celia out of respect for her starting this thread. I won't respond, I promise. This was all I wanted to say. (By the way, I'm not an osteopath so this wasn't my attempt to "sell" anything. )

    Be well,
    structural

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    Did he realize that we're talking about mature adults, not a child wearing a brace??

    And, how many times has he promised to leave.

    --Linda

    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    Linda R,
    Please consider this a 'post script' to my 'official last post' on this forum. I couldn't help but say a couple of things for two reasons... 1) Regardless of personal beliefs, opinions, experiences, limitations, etc., I think it's due time to at least open a healthy dialog on other topics that are very closely related to bracing effects. (I applaud Celia for that, regardless of the outcomes) and 2)It's also about time that we begin thinking critically with both studies and clinical experiences at hand... and consider options that are viable adjuncts by learning about them first and then deciding for yourselves whether or not it makes sense to try it. What osteopaths do could, and often does, address/free restrictions within the body that would then allow the bracing to work more effectively. I see no reason why that would be considered rubbish.


    Actually it depends quite a bit on the Osteopath... Many do not do high velocity adjustments ("manipulation" applies to all of the work they do, not just 'boney' adjustments/'cracking'). Some work only with indirect technique, etc... . The main emphasis in manipulative osteopathy is the soft tissue body... parietal, visceral and neural membranes as the three primary categories. If bony adjustments are made using HVLA adjustments, it will only constitute a small fraction of the treatment time... and if one would prefer not to get such adjustments (which is why many see an osteopath rather than a chiropractor) they just need to tell the osteopath. Also, 'cracking' bones is only one method of moving them... the more skilled method is the precise manipulation (not cracking) of the peri-articular tissues around the joint. It is very gentle, non forceful and usually longer lasting in its effect, since that is ultimately what is positioning the bones.

    Be very careful not to try and compare osteopathy to chiropractics... they are not related in the least bit, neither in theory or practice. Yes, osteopaths were the first to move bones in the body, but it isn't the cornerstone of their premise. Let's not use comments like that Linda to discourage people... what would be your suggestion in this case? See another scoliosis surgical specialist? Take drugs??? Bracing is already being utilized with good initial success but the cause has yet to be addressed (which a 'hands-on' approach may be able to reveal, in part at least). We'll never know unless we take our hands out of our pockets... (I picture these Drs standing around a piece of silk draped over their desk... theorizing and speculating about what it feels like... sticking specimens under microscopes with tweezers, poking it with their pens, taking photographs.... you get the idea... just pick it up already. )

    What would make the results so "miraculous"? Because someone could accomplish with their hands what bracing accomplishes with plastic, nylon and metal? Sounds even more miraculous that we get any results at all from the generalized and forceful approach of bracing.??? But we do... so it's not that miraculous that a skilled and intelligent human being may at times accomplish the same, especially when working in combination. You'd get the consistency maintained by the brace and the precise unwinding by the hand... sounds reasonable.

    Linda we must not forget that there are causes for this condition and we can't continue to ignore that aspect of it. Those causes, at least the majority of them, are unique to each person... no study will ever uncover the ONE universal cause of ideopathic scoliosis. So unless we start to consider other options as adjuncts, we'll never have much of a chance to gain ground in that realm. We'll be left treating the symptoms for another 50 years. And if we want more studies, why not be a part of it? Some people would have to do it. Seriously, we can't read about studies on its effectiveness until folks are willing to give these things a try... and it isn't quite fair to say 'well, let someone else try it first'.

    It may not be suitable for everyone, but neither are drugs and surgery.

    I'm sure you'll have a response for me... that's fine. But I feel I owed this reply to Celia out of respect for her starting this thread. I won't respond, I promise. This was all I wanted to say. (By the way, I'm not an osteopath so this wasn't my attempt to "sell" anything. )

    Be well,
    structural

  5. #5
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    Hi,

    I got a message back from dr. Rivard's office regarding Osteopathy and it's a big resounding NO. I'm cancelling the appointment with the osteopath.

    Canadian eh
    Daughter, Deirdre born Oct 2000. Diagnosed with 60 degree curve at the age of 19 months. Serial casting by Dr. Hedden at Sick Kid's Hospital. Currently being treated by Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard in Montreal with the Spinecor brace and curve is holding at "2" degrees. Next appointment 2008

  6. #6
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    Did he say anything else?
    God has used scoliosis to strengthen and mold us. He's good all the time!On this forum these larger curves have not held forever in Spinecor,with an initial positive response followed by deterioration. With deterioration, change treatment.The first year she gained 4 or 5 inches and was stable at around 20/20 in brace, followed by rapid progression the next year.She is now 51/40 (Jan2008)out of brace (40/30 in Spinecor) and started at 38/27 out of brace(Jan2006.) Now in Cheneau.

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    Hi Cheryl,

    Perhaps they feel in Deirdre's particular case that osteopathy would not be a good idea. I didn't speak directly to Dr. Rivard or Dr. Coillard as the message was relayed to me by the secretary. She did say that dr. Coillard was very much against it and the answer was NO not to go ahead with osteopathy.

    Deirdre's spine is being held straight in the spinecor and there are no asymmetric forces acting on the growth plates. Her spine moves freely in all directions so there is nothing for the osteopath to work with - in retrospect this whole thing seems a bit redundant. Structural mentioned *an underlying cause* - what underlying cause is there She has idiopathic scoliosis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Structural75
    The real test is going to be the growth spurts... . Then we'll have a better idea if forcing curves back without doing anything whatsoever to address or discover the potential cause was futile or not. Remember, the cause hasn't been acknowledged, only the symptom of it..

    Hubby is a bit relieved he won't have additional expenditures to worry about. When I mentioned the appointment to him a few days ago, he threw up his hands in exasperation
    Last edited by Celia; 06-06-2007 at 06:49 AM.

    Canadian eh
    Daughter, Deirdre born Oct 2000. Diagnosed with 60 degree curve at the age of 19 months. Serial casting by Dr. Hedden at Sick Kid's Hospital. Currently being treated by Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard in Montreal with the Spinecor brace and curve is holding at "2" degrees. Next appointment 2008

  8. #8
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    I found the following abstract in the SOSORT website re: manual therapy. The conclusion brings to mind the following observation by our good friend Gerbo:

    It does appear that practitioners using unproven methods have a lot to lose from proper evidence as it might just show that what they are selling to the unsuspecting public has no real value, or might even be harmful and they would be at risk of losing their livelihood. As lots of "alternative" practitioners make a good living out of selling "hope" (which might be false hope) they have nothing to gain from evidence of effectiveness and will resist therefore proper scientific evaluation of their methods. Evidence is their enemy
    As patients, or parents of patients, we are in the exactly opposite position as with the wide range of treatment options on the table, and knowing that time doesn't work in our favour, we need the best available evidence to decide which treatment to choose. We cannot afford to lose time on something what at best makes no difference and at worse could make things worse. Evidence is our friend (although it can be a very harsh and painfully honest friend, like any good friend should be)

    Two guiding principles;
    1) Lack of evidence of benefit= lack of evidence of potential harmfulness
    2) False hope = worse than no hope (whilst providing a good income to the practitioner dealing in it
    )



    ARE MANUAL THERAPIES EFFECTIVE TREATMENTS FOR ADOLESCENT
    IDIOPATHIC SCOLIOSIS? A SYSTEMATIC REVIEW

    M. Romano, S. Negrini
    ISICO (Italian Scientific Spine Institute), Milan
    e-mail: michele.romano@isico.it

    INTRODUCTION: Manual therapy is a widely common treatment for Adolescent Idiopathic Scoliosis but today it is no more acceptable to propose therapeutic strategies without verifying their efficacy.

    AIM: Systematic review of international scientific literature to verify the efficacy of manual therapy as a conservative treatment of Adolescent Idiopathic Scoliosis. By the term “manual therapy” we considered all types of treatment characterized by external passive strength (osteopathic, chiropractic, massage techniques), applied by a practitioner on the patients body.

    METHOD: Research have been performed on this database: Medline, Embase, Cinhal, Cochrane Library, Pedro. We have included all languages papers published until May 2005. We used a combination of the following key words: idiopathic scoliosis AND chiropractic; idiopathic scoliosis AND manipulation; idiopathic scoliosis AND mobilisation; idiopathic scoliosis AND manual therapy; idiopathic scoliosis AND massage; idiopathic
    scoliosis AND therapeutic manoeuvre. We searched also the following specialized databases: Index to Chiropractic Literature, Osteomed, Osteopathic Research Web, N.C.C.A.M. The inclusion criteria: any
    study design, diagnosis of idiopathic scoliosis, patients exclusively treated with manual therapy, outcome measure: Cobb degree. We decided the inclusion of research performed with different method of treatment because we realize that a lot of homogeneous study haven’t been included in scientific literature.


    RESULTS: With the used search criteria, we found 145 papers in total, but no one met the inclusion criteria. There were only two trials in which manual therapy had been combined with other therapeutic techniques and results were very contradictory. We also found three case reports.

    CONCLUSION: Available papers were inadequate for a systematic review. Practitioners who treat Adolescent Idiopathic Scoliosis with manual therapy don’t have only to publish better quality studies, but, above all, they must simply publish something, because there are no reliable studies at the moment.
    Last edited by Celia; 06-20-2007 at 12:21 PM.

    Canadian eh
    Daughter, Deirdre born Oct 2000. Diagnosed with 60 degree curve at the age of 19 months. Serial casting by Dr. Hedden at Sick Kid's Hospital. Currently being treated by Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard in Montreal with the Spinecor brace and curve is holding at "2" degrees. Next appointment 2008

  9. #9
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    Lumping every manual discipline into the general category of 'manual therapy' is like taking an average on the effectiveness of every type of brace and then drawing conclusions on bracing based on that average. But we're all aware that some braces are more effective than others which is why many folks here have chosen the spinecor. Otherwise, why not just recommend any old brace just like you're suggesting that any type of manual therapy would be appropriate... which definitely isn't the case.

    I also didn't notice any reference to connective tissue or fascial manipulation.??? 'Googling' topics on the internet to form a basis of a study seems a bit unsatisfactory to me. Why not reference the clinicians throughout the world who are actually doing the work. Not all research/studies/data are published online.

    But in the end, if it serves you to make a point of trying to dismiss things then so be it. We all make our own choices in life and they're only ours to live with.

    I think if people had a better understanding of what the bracing is actually doing to the spine physically and physiologically they would clearly see the relevance of certain types of adjunct treatments.

    Also, it seems quite interesting to me that the Montreal Drs don't advise ANY additional therapies/exercises for their spinecor patients, despite the fact that the company that makes the brace does recommend certain exercises. It is apparent that if their patients utilized any other methods in combination with the brace it would exclude them from their sterile ongoing study with the spinecor. You can't have some people using the brace exclusively and others doing additional things as well and get accurate conclusions on its effectiveness. I believe strongly that is why they are opposed to things such as osteopathy, etc... I can see no other reason for restricting all of their patients from utilizing adjunctive approaches. All in the name of science and a 'study' to please the manufacturer that they have a business deal with.

    structural

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    Structural,

    You must be suffering from some mental lapse because the topic is entitled Osteopathy and Scoliosis and *not* Spinecor. You also seem to forget that you made the following statement not too long ago....

    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    This is my absolute final post... go ahead, trash away, nows your chance without getting another reply from me.

    I'll be checking back in about 10 - 15 years or so... maybe I'll have some studies to satisfy your needs. Hope all goes as planned for you.

    Canadian eh
    Daughter, Deirdre born Oct 2000. Diagnosed with 60 degree curve at the age of 19 months. Serial casting by Dr. Hedden at Sick Kid's Hospital. Currently being treated by Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard in Montreal with the Spinecor brace and curve is holding at "2" degrees. Next appointment 2008

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    Yes, that is the title of this thread... but it soon became a passive aggressive means to discredit its use when you reported back Dr. Coillards opinion on its use. Thus, the mention of spinecor and the likely reason why you received such poor advice.

    Structural mentioned *an underlying cause* - what underlying cause is there She has idiopathic scoliosis.
    Ideopathic scoliosis doesn't mean there is NOT a cause, it means the cause is UNKNOWN. Thus she has a scoliosis with an unknown cause that nobody seems interested in, just the mechanical correction of the symptom. If the Drs. in Montreal want to focus all of their effort on the symptom (the curvature of the spine) and discourage their patients from taking a more rounded approach, fine... . But that doesn't mean there wasn't/isn't a cause for your daughter's scoliosis, it just means your Drs don't care to inquire about what that cause might be. And using your theory, you should be able to remove the brace now that you've got virtually perfect correction, right??? After all, there is no cause as you say. What would the osteopath work with??? They will attempt to shed more light and treat the initial impetus that caused your daughter's spine to curve in the first place. (which is more than likely still there given the torque/rotation evident in the x-ray, despite the spine being straight)

    Your right, I thought I could move onward from these senseless rants but I can't stand to watch individuals/parents discredit entire professions and approaches because they choose not to explore those avenues themselves or make informed decisions before diving head first into them(which consists of more than just reading studies, but using logic and common sense). Or because their Dr. is ignorant about these other treatment approaches. It's one thing to be here offering advice and support to one another, but to post material that is clearly meant to do nothing but attempt to discredit legitimate professions and avenues of inquiry into this condition is uphauling. If you demand studies on every thing you do before you do it, so be it... but there is clearly no use for the study you posted and it serves no purpose other than to keep people away from anything but bracing.

    How many more decades are we going to spend putting people in these devices and calling it done... that's it, the best we can do....? If these Drs. are so darn brilliant, then why haven't we come up with anything beyond putting peoples bodies in a mold? That's a fine start, but if we can't build on that and come up with something to actually find out more about what's causing these problems then something's wrong. Sticking with the same idea/premise is only going to yield similar results.

    So leave it be Celia... if you don't believe in anything outside of what Dr. Coillard thinks, that's fine... but there are folks who have followed his 'protocol' and things aren't looking much better if at all.

    As far as doing harm... I don't know of one study out there that performed a follow-up of patients who were braced in regards to their physical and physiologic health. Do you know of any? Who's to say that bracing (ie-forcing the curvature back without regard for the physiologic systems the body may have been trying to protect) didn't result in health issues for some people down the road? We wouldn't know because nobody has looked at this.

    Two guiding principles;
    1) Lack of evidence of benefit= lack of evidence of potential harmfulness
    2) False hope = worse than no hope (whilst providing a good income to the practitioner dealing in it)
    Very poor conclusions... 1) Show me one study that examines the potential side effects/harm of bracing. All they examine is the correction ability of the bracing, not the flip side. 2) These bracing studies alone give a tremendous amount of hope to individuals, and it's nowhere near 100% effective (meaning that many don't get the effect they were expecting from it). You don't consider that false hope? Do you and your pal Gerbo really believe that having some studies on these topics wouldn't create even greater hope for people... only to have some people discover that they were one of the unfortunate ones it didn't help.??? At least I don't promise anything to my clients or lean on some study as a crutch or use it as a beacon of light that only some will ever see. And the last I checked, the Drs are doing pretty darn well financially, even if they don't succeed all the time and aren't bothering to intervene sooner or open themselves to methods beyond their scope of practice.

    Many of the methods commonly used try to fight the scoliosis with force (brace, exercise/strengthening, etc.). There are methods that are attempting to address the underlaying persuasion that initiated the curve. The first approach is trying to redirect the massive 'current' (often being overcome by its tenacity and force) and the other is trying to change the 'riverbed' through which the current flows.

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    There is no reason for me not to trust dr. Rivard and dr.Coillard because they are experts in this field and their reply to me is consistent with the abstract which was presented by doctors at the SOSORT meeting in 2006. I don't know what your credentials are but it appears that these doctors who are very much interested in the conservative non operative treatment of scoliosis are dismissing manual therapies because there are no studies pointing to it's efficacy - thus a waste of time and money. One has to wonder why after so many years this is the case and as Gerbo succinctly points out "evidence is our friend".

    Canadian eh
    Daughter, Deirdre born Oct 2000. Diagnosed with 60 degree curve at the age of 19 months. Serial casting by Dr. Hedden at Sick Kid's Hospital. Currently being treated by Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard in Montreal with the Spinecor brace and curve is holding at "2" degrees. Next appointment 2008

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    ...there are no studies pointing to it's efficacy - thus a waste of time and money.
    Wait, since when does "no studies" = "waste of time"??? Was that your feeling on the spinecor brace before ANY studies had yet to be performed? What kind of logic is that? You wouldn't be using it if that were the case because you would have dismissed it a long time ago and never looked back... right? And what about their concept to begin with... a flexible corrective brace for scoliosis... ??? Albeit, I think it's the best idea thus far in the world of bracing, however they took their idea which had no studies to support it or no prior experience to suggest it would work... I find it quite surprising that they gained the acceptance of such a harsh critic as yourself given your stance on legitimacy and studies.

    Are there any studies that show spinecors long-term effectiveness of use following serial casting at a very early age of curves exceeding 50 degrees? Are there any studies that show its efficacy in treatment of these types of situations during major adolescent growth spurts? Or would a more rigid cast be needed for bracing to still be effective? These are all legitimate questions without answers or studies to back them up, yet you seem perfectly willing to be part of the 'experiment'. How is that any different than someone trying another non-operative approach in combination with the brace despite no relevant studies? And how do you, or the Montreal Drs., know that using the spinecor brace on an individual who had a 60 degree curve at 19 months of age isn't going to cause problems/harm when she starts growing rapidly?

    And where are the studies showing that stretching ligaments is beneficial, or not harmful? You seem to lean upon Gerbo's comments and opinions on this 'harm vs. no harm without studies' theory. Doesn't that apply to your good friend as well? If he's promoting and playing therapist at home on his own trying to stretch his daughter's ligaments, shouldn't there be a study to support its efficacy? And better yet, shouldn't he leave that up to someone who really knows what they're doing? A non-professional lay person manipulating/stretching his daughter's spine + no studies to confirm its efficacy = way more potential harm than what he is suggesting of actual professionals.


    Also, there may be "no" studies available to you on the internet, does that mean that none exist?
    There is no reason for me not to trust dr. Rivard and dr.Coillard because they are experts in this field and their reply to me is consistent with the abstract which was presented by doctors at the SOSORT meeting in 2006
    They are 'experts' in their field, not all fields. You don't ask a surgeon about manipulative therapies just as you don't ask manipulative practitioners about surgery. Given that they're not open to anything but use of the spinecor brace, as 'evident' by their advice to you and others, I would say they're primarily interested in the spinecor brace and their own personal interests. Remember, "evidence is our friend"... and it points to nothing but their brace. Do you honestly think this is the magic bullet that is going to resolve everyones scoliosis? Judging by the statistics I'd say it clearly isn't.

    It pains me to think how much more successful their bracing attempts would/could be if they gave their patients the opportunity to do more and they viewed this condition as more than just a mechanistic curvature of the spine.

    Do you know how to interpret a study properly or know which ones are done well and which ones are done poorly (as the one you sited). An internet search as the basis of a study does not constitute quality scientific research.

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    Structural, your discussions with celia are not of my concern. I know you and celia do not get on and that is never going to change. I do regret that after we finally after our last "exchange of views" agreed to disagree and left on friendly terms, you now feel it necessary to personally attack me. I have no issue with discussions about general observations I have made, and i stand by them, but to personaly attack my management of my daughter was unasked for and unneccessary. just for the record;

    And where are the studies showing that stretching ligaments is beneficial, or not harmful?
    There are none, none, for everybody to see; there are none!! (now, match that)

    You seem to lean upon Gerbo's comments and opinions on this 'harm vs. no harm without studies' theory.
    This is no theory, this is an acceptable principle in the whole scientific community. Ofcourse, people who for their own reasons do not work to scientific principles will not recognise this.

    Doesn't that apply to your good friend as well? If he's promoting and playing therapist at home on his own trying to stretch his daughter's ligaments, shouldn't there be a study to support its efficacy?
    This is the big difference between you and me structural. I am not promoting anything, I am only sharing my experiences with people in a similar situation as me whilst pointing out that there is no evidence to back up what i am doing. i am not encouraging people to do this themselves!!! You do lots of promoting!! I might take a risk, but unlike you, I am not encouraging other people to take a risk

    And better yet, shouldn't he leave that up to someone who really knows what they're doing? A non-professional lay person manipulating/stretching his daughter's spine + no studies to confirm its efficacy = way more potential harm than what he is suggesting of
    You are making assumptions structural. You do not know what physical therapists/ physio's i have and have had involved!

    actual professionals.
    how to define one of those; is a raindroptherapist a professional, a colourtherapist, a palmreader, a chiropracter?? It is an empty meaningless term and as a label covers lots of sins and bad practice.......
    Last edited by gerbo; 06-21-2007 at 03:05 AM.

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    416
    Playing that card again... lumping sound anatomically physiologically based and scientifically scrutinized approaches to the body to raindrop therapy... where's the comparison? Certain professions may not have studies relating directly to scoliosis in the form you'd like to see, but they absolutely have gone under scientific scrutiny for many other conditions/reasons... with success I might add. Did you not take a glance at the link I gave you in another post. We are NOT afraid of the scientific process, the creator of the work I do was a RESEARCH SCIENTIST her entire career, and strongly advocated scientific inquiry into her work, and consequently subjected it to it. She felt it was of utmost importance. Where's the apparent avoidance you continue to suggest? The problem here is that it was studied for a variety of effects, it was not created solely to treat scoliosis but rather for the treatment of any number of physical conditions etc... . The studies showed it's effectiveness at altering human structure for the better (significant change in lumbar lordosis/sway back, pelvic inclination, higher efficiency and function via EMG tests, etc.)... if you can't grasp its relevance here then I don't know what else to say.

    This is no theory, this is an acceptable principle in the whole scientific community. Ofcourse, people who for their own reasons do not work to scientific principles will not recognise this.
    You constantly seem to think that certain profession, namely mine, are avoiding scientific analysis... and that simply isn't the case... .

    Sorry for the apparent 'attack'... I didn't intend it to be, however, if Celia is going to use your statements to try and make a point to discredit everything that she lacks an understanding of then I will point out the hypocracy in it. And that goes for you as well... you hold me to a standard that you're not even holding your own physiotherapist to... so it's OK for you to go to a physio who is doing things that hasn't been "proven" in scientific studies but people on this forum can't inquire and try something I suggest that I know has been effective in some cases and may possibly help them? Just as it's your "risk" to take, it is also everyone elses, and bracing has its risks as well. The truth of the matter is that we don't fully know what those risks with bracing are yet because nobody has looked into them or examined the possibilities of it to notice.

    This is the big difference between you and me structural. I am not promoting anything, I am only sharing my experiences with people in a similar situation as me whilst pointing out that there is no evidence to back up what i am doing. i am not encouraging people to do this themselves!!! You do lots of promoting!! I might take a risk, but unlike you, I am not encouraging other people to take a risk
    No you're not personally encouraging anyone, but your physio has suggested and encouraged you to take a risk... otherwise you wouldn't be doing those things. How many more people have they encouraged to do these activities? So you're physio is in the right here to do these things with people but no one else is??? Is your physio exempt from such scrutiny? And for the record, I am also "sharing my experiences with people" and acknowledge that there aren't any formal studies online to prove it, however my "sharing" happens to come from professional experience in the clinical setting where evidence does exist whether it was part of a study or not! And you are in no place to refute that fact. And I gain nothing financially from sharing it.

    Promoting???? When did I promote myself??? Where is it that I told one single person on this forum to come and see me???? I'm simply defending the relevance of Classical Osteopath Manipulative Medicine as a potential adjunct in the overall treatment of scoliosis... Your friends seems to think it's OK as parents to be providing oversight and judgment on professions they know nothing about other than what they read on the internet. And we all know that I could go out into cyberspace and find numerous reports, papers and studies which say that bracing is NOT effective and make decisions based on that inaccurate information... but I know better than that and it will always be dependent on who you ask and where you source your info from. Now granted, I realize that some people here have had experiences with certain things (chiro, raindrop therapy?) and it is perfectly valid and appropriate for them to share their experiences and opinions... but as of yet, nobody has come out and said anything negativev about their experience with the approaches I have put forth or defended.
    I'm tired of your 'promotional accusations'.. there's no bases for that garbage here. Some people don't want to sit on their hands and resign themselves to just bracing or only things that have already been 'studied scientifically'... and good for them. I'm certain that you'll see the studies you demand on certain professions some day, but until then, I think you should re-evaluate your idea of risks involved in some of these approaches... If you understood them and the close relationship they have to bracing affects, you'd see that you're creating unnecessary fears for people wishing to pursue additional options. But that's assuming you understand how they work and what they are doing... which you clearly don't.

    4-year-old Tim Barrett had been diagnosed with Legg-Perthes disease (a femur capital necrosis occurring in children). Doctors told Barrett's mother to put Tim in a cast for five years, others predicted he would be in a wheelchair by his 20th birthday. Listening instead to Ida Rolf, the child's mother subjected her son to several months of treatments. The payoff? Tim is now a 40-something surfer who grew up without any disabilities or lasting reminders of his childhood challenges.
    I don't believe there were any studies relating the work to the treatment of Legg-Perthes disease, ...And the Doctors were suggesting to do what had been the accepted norm... .

    Taking educated risks is the only way we're going to see a change in the treatment of scoliosis. And I'm not twisting anyones arm on the matter, just defending the right for an unbiased presentation of information and available approaches/options for people. If you folks want to spend your time trying to dismiss and discredit everything that hasn't been studied and you don't understand, so be it. But I will defend the right to share information against unwarranted slander. Seriously now, if you guys spent as much time educating yourselves about some of these things as you do trying to find 'evidence' to discredit them, you might have actually learned something by now.

    So when someone asks if there is anything else that other folks have tried that might help, I will gladly share what I know.

    p.s.-By the way, I'm not an Osteopath so what would be the point in me 'promoting' it? This is a thread on osteopathy and scoliosis after all.

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