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Thread: Scoliosis and TAMARS treatment

  1. #61
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    Gerbo,

    Avoiding the issues raised once again... have you any response to my questions other than "we need studies" and "scientific medicine"? Anyhow, SI has been scientifically validated to alter physical structure and function. Why is it SOOOO hard for you to consider its applicability to scoliosis. It's just a label, not a DISEASE pal!
    (and if we wanted to consider choosing something "additional" on top of bracing , based on the persuasive say-so or personal experience or divine gifts or aggressive sales tactics of the practioner involved there is so much to choose from that one wouldn't know where to start; raindrop therapy, SI, pyramid therapy, colourtherapy, chiropracters (in lots of different shades) laying on of hands, dancing round a campfire at midnight whilst chanting traditional dutch nursery rhymes; the list of "alternatives" is endless.)
    Actually, you would have an idea as to where to start if you had even the slightest understanding of how the brace was potentially effective. Again, studies and "science" aren't what make something, including braces, effective... If you took the time to learn a little something on your own maybe you could make a sound decision.

    Now you're lumping SI into the same category as raindrop therapy, chiropractics, laying on of hands, etc??? You're absurd... Keep sitting on your hands while the curve develops... .

  2. #62
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    Gerbo,

    Do you have any sound anatomical reason why SI or TAMARS would not be potentially beneficial?


    You rant about causing more harm but as I see it your brace could be causing more harm than good as evident by the new curve. You claim it's of no consequence because it's not structural, yet I'm sure the original curve wasn't structural because if it were bracing wouldn't correct it. You refuse to acknowledge that there is an underlaying cause to the curve and that by forcing it back with a brace without considering its cause you could be doing more harm than good, as evident by the fact that her body has induced another curvature. Again, this wouldn't be acceptable if it resulted from an "alternative" treatment. Just because your Drs don't see anything on an x-ray/MRI doesn't mean that something isn't causing it. Not all causes are visible through imaging scans... connective tissue disorders, asymmetric tension on the dura around the spinal cord, etc... .

    So how would the use of manual treatments be any more harmful than using an inanimate device to FORCE the curve back? The human hand could detect and treat abnormalities that a brace cannot. You're tactics here are strictly fear based... you still haven't given me a reason why a manual approach combined with bracing wouldn't, or couldn't, be useful. You're logic is completely unsubstantiated. Ridicule all you like...

    And give your 'financial interest' theories a rest... I'm obviously not here promoting my private practice, I'm just trying to create awareness of some things not yet published in a study.

  3. #63
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    Wink Pilates-managing scoliosis

    Structural quote:
    What I find ironic is that you trust a Pilates instructor to manage your scoliosis
    My surgeon is in full agreement with this used as a fitness adjunct not as "managing" my scoliosis. A Pilates program is offered at the Hospital for Special Surgery in New York city as an adjunct not a treatment which they find helpful.

    Interestingly, my Pilates instructor recommended I try(pre-op and now if I want SI/Rolfing)--but after hearing you it does not appeal and I am doing well as is.

    I am going hiking in the Alps-leaving today so I will be off the forum for awhile.
    Original scoliosis surgery 1956 T-4 to L-2 ~100 degree thoracic (triple)curves at age 14. NO hardware-lost correction.
    Anterior/posterior revision T-4 to Sacrum in 2002, age 60, by Dr. Boachie-Adjei @Hospital for Special Surgery, NY = 50% correction

  4. #64
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    Karen,
    That's great. So if your Doctor recommended Pilates, despite you having scoliosis and Pilates has not been 'proven' in any studies to be helpful OR harmful (ode to Gerbo), then why your aversion to SI or TAMARS? I came to this forum with the same compassionate mentality that your well respected Pilates instructor has for you... to share information on methods that might prove useful to varying degrees for individuals. All you've done, with the help of others, is try to discredit its relevance and dismiss it as non-sense without any knowledge of it whatsoever. ?????

    You might be interested to know that SI has also been instituted into various hospitals throughout the country. Whether you're aware of this or not doesn't give you the right to dismiss it.

    Here's what some real "medical professionals" have to say about it.

    Dr. Irene Grant is an Internal Medicine and Infectious Disease Specialist in New York City. She is currently on the teaching faculty at Albert Einstein College of Medicine and Assistant Clinical Professor of Medicine at New York Medical College.
    She had a very bad whiplash injury when she was a child, which created problems in her neck, similar to scoliosis. An Osteopath referred her to Structural Integration. Irene says, "After ten sessions I noticed that my posture improved, my chronic neck pain was significantly relieved, and I had much more energy. Further treatments brought progressive freedom. I experienced major changes. The most amazing thing is that I am now pain free."
    Irene has been receiving Structural Integration sessions now weekly, for the past two and a half years. "I am very impressed with Structural Integration and have referred a lot of patients to Structural Integration, including Scoliosis patients. Structural Integration is a wonderful method that can rehabilitate and reverse injuries."
    Dr. Mary Kay Brewster is an OB GYN, Medical Doctor in Carmel, California. She tried Structural Integration to alleviate low back pain and sciatica. She states, “I was in pain 90% of the time and now I am pain free. Everyday I recommend Structural Integration to friends, family, colleagues and patients.”
    Jim Mongomery, MD, an orthopedic surgeon in Dallas, Texas, often refers his clients to Rolfing. "I send a variety of my clients to a Certified Advanced Rolfer, Nicholas French. People with shoulder and elbow problems, with scar tissue resulting from injury or surgery, chronic hamstring problems, low back and cervical spine problems. People that have had chronic problems that have not been helped by anything else. All those people can be helped with Rolfing."
    Certified Advanced Rolfer and MD, Dr. Bret Nye, speaks about alternative/complementary medicine, a cost effective, alternative to surgery and drugs - "Demand for the services of health practitioners like Rolfers is growing as evidenced by the Nov. 98 JAMA estimate of $21.2 billion being spent for alternative medicine in 97. Integrative health care, is a new trend, that combines Western and complementary medicines to offer the best technological advances in health care. Health insurance companies are increasingly becoming interested in therapies like Rolfing not only as potential cost effective alternatives or complements to traditional modalities, but as opportunities to provide coverage for services that will distinguish them in an increasingly competitive market place of providers."
    Larry Dossey, M.D., best-selling author: "There is one major reason to take Rolfing® seriously: it works. Not only can it dramatically change people's bodies, it can transform their lives as well. Rolfing is powerful stuff."
    SI has been around for half a century... just because you aren't familiar with it doesn't detract from its value here. I'm sure the same would ring true for TAMARS.

    Enjoy the Alps!

  5. #65
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    Structural, may I ask a (respectful) question?

    Ray is seeking to get scientific studies done by a prestigious university in London, to prove the usefulness of his TAMARS treatment in treating scoliosis.

    Are you currently doing the same thing to gain scientific proof for the ability of Structural Integration to cure scoliosis and your theory that scoliosis is usually caused by SI joint subluxation, and if not, why not?

    As a responsible patient, I would need to have some sort of scientific evidence that the treatment I was going to pay for actually worked. I would expect the inventors/discoverers of alternative treatments to seek to have proper studies done, and if they weren't doing so then that would start alarm bells ringing in my head.

    Cheers,

    Toni

  6. #66
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    Toni,

    Yes, by all means, ask away.

    But first... Hold the phone... !

    Are you currently doing the same thing to gain scientific proof for the ability of Structural Integration to cure scoliosis and your theory that scoliosis is usually caused by SI joint subluxation,
    IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM WAS THAT "SI JOINT SUBLUXATION " THEORY MINE, THAT BELONGED TO EXPATIENT! Please do re-read that thread, as I DO NOT wish to be mistaken for such claims. In fact, I responded along with you on that topic trying to clarify why Expatient's theory was not very sound.

    Ok, now that we've clarified that absurdity... Secondly, I have always stated that it is sometimes effective in slowing, stopping or reducing curvatures to varying degrees. I wouldn't use the word cure for ANY scoliosis treatment... a cure is something you administer which eliminates the problem... a cure is not random, inconsistent and unpredictable like all scoliosis treatments are. Nor does a cure create further complications and problems down the road as surgery often does. Those are not cures, they are simply the best solution we have at this point.

    Only a portion of my practice is work with children and adults with scoliosis. The rest are folks with a variety of issues etc... . I would love to gain "scientific proof" of such regarding SI and scoliosis, ...as I gain some time to do it properly. I am looking to begin a research project in conjunction with an MD in Physical Medicine here in the States, Dr. Tom Findley (He was a presenter at the recent Boston Conference for non-surgical approaches to spinal deformities - more on him at www.rolfdoc.com). He is also the Director of Research for the Rolf Institute of Structural Integration and a certified advanced SI practitioner. In fact, Dr. Findley introduced Dr. Rolf (founder of the work) in the 70's to Georgetown University where she herself pursued her own research following her stint at Columbia Univ.(she was a research scientist of biochemistry... is that not "scientific"?).

    Yes, we as a profession have a Research department of which they have done studies in a number of fields utilizing the work. It is not that they aren't interested in scoliosis (quite the contrary) but with the variety of conditions that this work has successfully treated, there will always be ones that have yet to hit the proving grounds. So the work has been validated "scientifically" in other respects, just not in the one you're interested in... So that doesn't make it an unscientific discipline as some of you are suggesting, nor has it been proven 'ineffective'. Besides, the work was developed by a scientist (biochemist) who spent her life doing research on a component of the human body (the most abundant substance besides water mind you), connective tissue/fascia, that was otherwise largely neglected by other Drs and scientists up to that point. Now, thanks to Dr. Rolf's work and the efforts of her predecessors there is an International Fascial Research Congress at Harvard Medical School this year bringing together the top scientists and researchers throughout the world in a variety of fields to discuss the importance, significance and newly discovered role this substance has in a variety of realms... from cell biology, genetic morphology and disease like cancer to structural/physical deformities and dysfunctions. www.fascia2007.com

    I believe that a study involving SI and scoliosis would be performed most effectively and credibly if headed by one of the primary Institutes for the work, or the International organization (IASI). With the incredibly skeptical scrutiny of folks like yourself out there (understandable by the way) it doesn't appear as though any of you would accept a 'small' study done by moi. So keep your eyes open and ears alert to "scientific" evidence someday, it will no doubt exist. For now, you're welcome to be skeptical, but trashing this method with no knowledge of it is simply inappropriate.. I wish that would stop.

    Please keep in mind that many of your "scientifically proven" methods are failing people as well. They are not "cures". They are the 'currently accepted and acknowledged best shots'.

    I know that's all a bit much but what did you expect... Toni, don't take my tone at times personally.... I get irritated trying to constantly clarify myself (as in the SI joint sublux theory that wasn't mine!)... .

    Good day
    structural

  7. #67
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    Oh my goodness, I am REALLY sorry Structural, that was a genuine mistake! It's been a while since we were on that thread and I got confused. Please accept my apologies!

    It was actually Expatient that I had in mind for getting studies done; it was he who was claiming that scoliosis was almost certainly caused by SI joint subluxation and that it could be completely "cured" (I don't believe scoli can be "cured" totally either). Since this seems like a miracle, I would hope that he'd be seeking to share his discoveries with scientific researchers!

    As far as Rolfing goes, I know that it can be of great help in relieving pain, but I would still want to see scientific studies if I were to choose this treatment to actually help improve scoliosis. I'm glad that you'll be seeking to get these studies done when you have the time to do so

  8. #68
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    Now that we have all gone round in circles and everyone has bitten everyone else's head off is it not the purpose of this forum to investigate, and examine possible treatments for scoliosis.
    The knowledge of TAMARS is obviously very limited judging from some of the comments, but don't ignore it. You may be very surprised at what it can do in the right hands. I may not have the evidence being demanded but evidence there certainly is in the shape of the patients who have had their spines re-shaped. TAMARS takes the pressure off discs by freeing up the joints and straightening the spine by untwisting it. So in reality it is removing degrees of scoliosis every time it is used. The results are visible even though I am ridiculed for saying this. Fly in and watch treatments Toni. Then you can make your own mind up.

  9. #69
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    The knowledge of TAMARS is obviously very limited judging from some of the comments, but don't ignore it. You may be very surprised at what it can do in the right hands. I may not have the evidence being demanded but evidence there certainly is in the shape of the patients who have had their spines re-shaped.
    I am not cynical here, but intrigued. Evidence might not be available currently, but would be so easy to collect as anybody with a significant scoliosis will have their condition medically documented somewhere. Any significant improvement should also be recorded somewhere. How willing would you be to get that information ???(your clients should be able to ask their GPs for copies of relevant letters of consultants???)

    Ofcourse Structural could do the same, and set himself apart (which I'd love him to do)from the wide range of alternative practitioners from which he claims to be different (but in the end they all claim the same things, with the same observational "evidence", and all with their own beliefsystems in which they have an unshakable belief)

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    If you'd rather sit on your hands and wait, then fine. But you have no right to try and comment on things that you don't understand, especially when those comments are meant to discredit.
    Very well said,.... as a father of a scoliotic daughter my first option will be to try alternative treatment first. I'm sure lots among you will disagree with me that the present conventional treatment of "wait & see, wait & brace & wait & cut" is not a cure (this is just my point of view which I don't impose on anyone), I agree that for others this could be the only option..... Scientific studies and documentations and results takes a long time, while my daughter's curve continue to progress, until i have no other alternative but to put her to surgery, as remedy and not cure.

    I might spend lots of money for nothing, so what? but at least I tried doing something, instead of just waiting...... lots of people will spend so much more just to jump off a plane or climb mountains......

    Who knows, one of these alternative or combined of these treatments might be the standard accepted treatment in the future? All treatments started and were used in just few people......Majority means just more people are on the other side of the line.

    Galileo get laughed at and declared heretic when he proclaimed that the sun revolves around the earth, not the other way around...

    edd
    father to denisse
    T37/ L 35
    opt for Schroth Technique
    Last edited by edd; 05-31-2007 at 02:17 PM.

  11. #71
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    Gerbo,
    I am continually trying to get information from doctors. I have to request it via the patient but it is so frustrating as I have been waiting for months now for x-rays etc from several scoliosis opatients, one of whom has decided her back is so good she is refusing surgery. And I do not make recommendation as to that effect. I let the patients decide for themselves. If a surgeon recommends surgery I do not interfere.

    Edd,
    I agree with your point ie this watching and waiting system which gives no option in a lot of cases except major surgery. Obviously if the treatment has no history of helping then you are throwing your money away, and there are lots of those about. I originally posted here because of the results I was getting, and these results came about after treating patients for back pain. To get rid of the back pain you have to reduce the scoliosis.
    My experience also is that the earlier I get the patient the easier they are to help. Unfortunately a large number of my patients have had scoliosis under the magical surgical necessary curvature for anything up to 50 years. And they are tough. But they do change.
    Last edited by Rayknox; 05-31-2007 at 05:23 AM.

  12. #72
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    I am the last one to sit on my hands as I cannot afford doing so considering the condition of my daughter

    If you are in a similar situation, and considering their are so many alternatives of offer, you do not want to waste your time on something what has no evidence of benefit, but focus you effort and time and money on approaches which have the best possible chance of succes? You cannot afford to do that as time isn't on your side!

    it is interesting that you are using the schroth therapy. Practitioners of that approach have made great efforts providing scientific evidence of its effectiveness and deserve to be applauded for that. I would definiely consider schroth to be a "credible" alternative.

    Interestingly though, when i looked into that treatment, and asked about it on german forums (schroth comes from germany) the very clear message I got was; by all means try schroth, but not without good bracing, which they considered even more important.

    For that matter, they were very negative about the quality of bracing in UK and USA, which they felt did not provide enough correction and was bound to fail

    Thought you might find that interesting.....
    Last edited by gerbo; 05-31-2007 at 05:30 AM.

  13. #73
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    Ray, it should be so easy, you do not need the xrays, just the letters documenting the condition. Pt should get them from their GP no problem. additionally, you could ask them to tell their story on scoliosis-support.org, so "we" can ask them directly about their experiences.

  14. #74
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    Gerbo

    I am seeing some of these in the next few days and I will try and get them to do as you suggest.

  15. #75
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    Gerbo,
    Ofcourse Structural could do the same, and set himself apart (which I'd love him to do)from the wide range of alternative practitioners from which he claims to be different (but in the end they all claim the same things, with the same observational "evidence", and all with their own belief systems in which they have an unshakable belief)
    I'm sorry you can't see how SI is different from raindrop therapy in its premise, methodology and effect.?? It is not a "claim" to be different, it is a pure fact. Now again, if you took a moment to educate yourself about HOW these approaches work and WHAT they do to the body anatomically and physiogically then maybe you wouldn't have such a hard time considering its potential importance here. Also note that I have repeated suggested using this, or any other sound method, in combination with the bracing or other 'conventional' widely accepted methods. Yet you continue to suggest that I'm asking people to replace their current treatment methods with another. I have never asked a patient to do such a thing.

    And my professions "belief system" has been proven in scientific clinical studies to alter the overall human structure, change alignment and improve physiologic function. Now I agree, I would also like to see that scientifically documented via a study as it pertains to scoliosis, but it is not far fetched whatsoever to 'believe' or suggest that its effect on scoliosis couldn't be the same for some. If it has been documented to show the reduction of things such as kyphosis and excessive lordosis or 'flat back syndrome', then where's the stretch you're saying exists regarding scoliosis? It is ludicrous to believe that an inanimate brace can force a curve back without addressing any specific anatomical component of the curve, but the same couldn't be done with highly specific manual intervention.... that logic isn't suffice. I still haven't heard your response on why or how this is any different from bracing. The only reason you continue to lump it in with esoteric and unrelated methods is because you have no idea how it works or what it actually does, and you don't seem to care.

    structural

    p.s. - If your not sitting on your hands what are you doing?

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