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Thread: Scoliosis and TAMARS treatment

  1. #31
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    Once again you're out in the left field grasping for analogies, what does drugs have to do with the topic! There is no slander here! Results, that's the key word. You can spend enormous sums of money spinning your wheels and getting no where or you could do something that has proven results - therein lies the difference in the non operative treatment of scoliosis. You can say all you want but until you can prove your treatment works no-one is going to buy into it! Period! We also have very differing views in our interpretation of musculoskeletal specialists and snake oil salesmen.

    Canadian eh
    Daughter, Deirdre born Oct 2000. Diagnosed with 60 degree curve at the age of 19 months. Serial casting by Dr. Hedden at Sick Kid's Hospital. Currently being treated by Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard in Montreal with the Spinecor brace and curve is holding at "2" degrees. Next appointment 2008

  2. #32
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    Read between the lines... .

    We also have very differing views in our interpretation of musculoskeletal specialists and snake oil salesmen.
    If calling alternative practitioners snake oil salesmen isn't slander, then I don't know what is.

    Just because "alternative practitioners" aren't rolling in money as your MDs are and can't afford expensive studies for your reading pleasure, it doesn't mean that there haven't been clinical successes. And keep in mind that not nearly everyone who makes the expensive and time consuming efforts with bracing have success with it, proven or unproven with studies! You can talk about expensive treatments all you like, but when it comes down to it, you're chosen method is one of the most expensive out there and it doesn't guarantee results either.

    And for the record lady, nobody needs to "buy" into my complimentary approach because I run a non-profit scoliosis clinic for children and adolescents. I do this because: 1) I care about these children 2) Everyone, regardless of financial abilities, should be able to provide the best comprehensive care possible for their children 3) I believe ideopathic scoliosis is caused by a wide array of factors, each unique to the individual. It's not a disease, and it isn't always due to genetics. There are many possible reasons why someone would develop a lateral curvature of the spine. Therefore, there will probably never be one solution to this problem that works all of the time and the predictability of treatment outcome will probably always remain somewhat questionable.

    I don't know why it's so hard for you to understand how some of these "alternative" approaches could be effective in many cases (TAMARS, structural integration, etc). You don't seem to understand what the braces your daughter has worn are doing to make those corrections. If you did, you might see the logic and capabilities of these other approaches as completely viable compliments to the bracing process. So until you're able to understand the physical and physiologic changes that the braces create, I don't see how you have any right to dismiss these other methods so rudely.

    Good Day
    Last edited by structural75; 05-28-2007 at 08:49 AM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    ....Just because "alternative practitioners" aren't rolling in money as your MDs are and can't afford expensive studies for your reading pleasure, it doesn't mean that there haven't been clinical successes. And keep in mind that not nearly everyone who makes the expensive and time consuming efforts with bracing have success with it, proven or unproven with studies! You can talk about expensive treatments all you like, but when it comes down to it, you're chosen method is one of the most expensive out there and it doesn't guarantee results either.

    Actually, my chosen method didn't cost me too much as most of it was covered by insurance! I don't know how you interpret success, but we're having pretty *darn* good luck with our chosen method, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!! Since you have brought up the clinical successes experienced by alternative practitioners that are not found in studies and we don't have the pleasure of reading, please share with us the miraculous success you've experienced in your own personal trials with scoliosis and how structural integration helped resolve your 25 degree curvature.

    Canadian eh
    Daughter, Deirdre born Oct 2000. Diagnosed with 60 degree curve at the age of 19 months. Serial casting by Dr. Hedden at Sick Kid's Hospital. Currently being treated by Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard in Montreal with the Spinecor brace and curve is holding at "2" degrees. Next appointment 2008

  4. #34
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    You're a heartless #@$@$! You have some real balls to question and belittle my personal experience and suggest that I'm being dishonest.

    I'm glad your daughter's doing well and hope it continues, ...update me when she's quite a bit older though, and finished her major growth spurts. And please explain to all of those folks out there who didn't have the results you're currently having with bracing (for correction and/or pain) why it didn't work for them and what they should do. Is it time for surgery for them? Should they not explore any other options but the one that has already failed?

    The world doesn't revolve around 'Celia', ...there are people who have tried you're approved method and are at a loss as to what to do. So what is the harm in offering suggestions for additional approaches?

    Happy Memorial Day!

    p.s.- Maybe if we had some serious health care reform in this ridiculously opulent country of ours we would have more choices and ability in getting the care we need. Some insurance companies do cover structural integration, but at the moment it's not many. Meanwhile, millions of people can't afford even basic health insurance because those that have it are driving up the cost , MDs are charging them outrageous sums for their services and drug/technology companies are making billions in profits.

    There are European countries that spend 9% of their GNP on universal health care for all. The US, who doesn't offer universal health care and has millions of people uninsured, spends 16% of their GNP on it. What's wrong with this picture??? In the meantime you're getting coverage and then traveling to Canada for the care.???
    Last edited by structural75; 05-28-2007 at 11:15 AM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    You're a heartless #@$@$! You have some real balls to question and belittle my personal experience and suggest that I'm being dishonest.


    I beg your pardon???! I've had enough of your questioning my chosen path and insulting my doctors. I'm perfectly aware that not everyone is having the same success and who knows what will happen during the adolescent growth spurt, I don't have a crystal ball. There are many ills in this world, but some things like the state of health care and turmoil in the middle east are beyond my control so I won't stress over it. Why can't you share your personal experience with scoliosis and how structural integration helped??? Prove me wrong that you're not a liar.

    Canadian eh
    Daughter, Deirdre born Oct 2000. Diagnosed with 60 degree curve at the age of 19 months. Serial casting by Dr. Hedden at Sick Kid's Hospital. Currently being treated by Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard in Montreal with the Spinecor brace and curve is holding at "2" degrees. Next appointment 2008

  6. #36
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    Now back in the country.
    Well that little break has stirred up what sounds like an old argument.
    Structural - I do not know your background, but your answers probably took some of the pressure off me having to state a lot of what you said.
    Please refer to my original posting and in hindsight my words were obviously open to a different interpretation than I intended.
    We do get very good results with the majority of our scoliosis patients, and the results are visible - invasive x-rays are not necessary to see the changes. If you do not believe this then you can only come and observe. It is not rocket science to measure a rib-hump or a kyphosis and monitor the changes.
    How long do the changes last. There would have been no use in my stating results a week after treatment and stating there was no regression. Hence I mentioned the cerebral palsy case. I can also use my own son as an example.
    My use of the term idiopathic for my own son is because that would be the medical term for it. We were not aware of my sons scoliosis until he was in his 20's. I am convinced the condition was caused by a fall in his mid teens but how do I prove this without a time machine to go back and check his spine before the accident.
    I still am convinced that lots of scoliosis conditions are caused by a fall. My theory on spinal compression is disputed but who can say I am wrong. The 15 year old female patient that I mentioned was 2.5cm taller after her first treatment and this did not regress. You give me your scientific explanation of this! This patient by the way had x-rays, MRI scans, bone scans etc and never once was she told that she had curvatures. My cat could have seen the curvature when she lay down. My cat would now tell me the curvature is now gone. As are all her symtoms.
    Her condition would have been diagnosed as being idiopathic if they had noticed the curvatures. All they could tell her was that she had degenerated upper lumbar discs(idiopathic?) and would never play sport again. So much for that.
    Karen mentioned that a forum member tried the treatment but did not report back. I did say that inexperienced practitioners will not get good results. There are very few people that have specialised in this treatment and this is a big problem. There is absolutely no point in giving this equipment to a physio or anyone else for them to use it one or two hours a week and then expect good results. I have been working with this 6 to 8 hours a day, 6 days a week for three and a half years now and I am still learning.
    I had a visit last year from a US chiropractor of 15 years experience. After his 4 days that he had booked for hands on training he lenghtened his stay as he found it so difficult to master.
    Sandy again the idiopathic/ congenital issue. Idiopathic is no known cause. Just because there is no known cause does not mean there is no cause. There has to be a cause. This is why I raised the issue of falls on the pelvic region. Until you get experienced with this treatment you will not believe that I can very quickly tell if this is the cause by the feel of the spine through the TAMARS handset. Mock all you like- it is a fact. And until you sort out the problems caused by the fall you will not resolve the scoliosis.
    Celia - I do not have the 'gall' to make assertions without x-rays. In most cases the evidence is visible. Don't criticise something you know nothing about. You ask for results. I have results but have not published as I know that people like you want x-rays. I am trying to rectify this as I have said.
    To conclude, it was very useful communications from people like toni and structural Some other comments were natural scepticism from concerned interested parties.Some were just rude. I am not advertising. I am only stating what I have discovered.
    Feel free to continue the discussion.
    Ray

  7. #37
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    I searched the web for info on the TAMARS treatment. It's marketed as a device for physical therapy to do deep massage for back pain. The company does NOT claim it as a treatment for scoliosis. So why are we discussing it here?

    http://www.skycapitalventures.com/po...ech/index.html

    The only persons claiming it works for scoliosis are individual practitioners who are advertising their services on-line.

    My concern here, MR. Knox, that you are trying to drum up business on this forum-using a device for a disorder that the maker does not even claim it helps.



    As a medical professional I cannot, for the life of me, see how it can reposition a scoliotic spine permanently. It might be great for back spasm and is touted as giving relief to PTs who must administer deep massage.

    We should all be so lucky to have such a simple solution.
    Last edited by Karen Ocker; 05-28-2007 at 04:13 PM.
    Original scoliosis surgery 1956 T-4 to L-2 ~100 degree thoracic (triple)curves at age 14. NO hardware-lost correction.
    Anterior/posterior revision T-4 to Sacrum in 2002, age 60, by Dr. Boachie-Adjei @Hospital for Special Surgery, NY = 50% correction

  8. #38
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    Karen

    The company you mention will not make a claim that does not have a clinical trial as proof. This is the company I am hoping will start a trial in the US in the near future. A deep massage !! Again you comment on something you know nothing about. There are two main modes to this treatment. The mobilisation mode which counter-rotates the vertebrae and the reflex mode which stimulates the spinal muscle reflexes. This latter mode is the the mode which gets the spine to straighten. The mobilisation purely frees up the joints. Obviously if the joints are stiff they will not straighten.
    Maybe this is the reason for so many of the negative comments. No-one understands the treatment.
    And who do you think is the 'maker' It is not this American company.It was designed by an engineer in England. And you will find that he claims the treatment reduces curvatures. I now know that he is correct.
    I do not need to drum up business. I can barely cope with what I have.I only discovered this forum last week and thought it might be useful to someone to discuss my findings. If I wanted to get business I would have mentioned my web site. I had no intention of doing so but if you find it maybe you will learn more.
    You do not state what sort of a medical professional you are. But unfortunately your response is typical of a lot of medical people - ' I have never heard of it or was not taught the treatment so obviously it must be rubbish'.
    Last edited by Rayknox; 05-28-2007 at 05:21 PM.

  9. #39
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    Ray,

    Very well put. I hope that you can see I'm not here to discredit you, but rather quite the contrary. I happen to agree with everything you stated in the last couple of posts, and even prior. And you're right, it did stir up an old argument... But as you can see, I have to watch my back constantly here and I was trying to wade gently without creating another disturbance for the sharks.

    I really wish people would make some effort to understand how things work before casting negative remarks about them. And you're correct, it is not just the device that is important in treatment, but the skill of the person administering treatment with it. Same in my profession, some practitioners are much more skilled and effective at achieving change than others. And this will always be the case involving the human application of treatment. Just as some surgeons are bad, good and exceptional.

    I don't know why people can't seem to understand this... after all, I hear them repeatedly praising the spinecor but questioning the people fitting the brace when it doesn't work. How is something like the TAMARS any different?

    I agree completely that it's not rocket science to be able to see and palpate a curvature (and any subsequent changes). Anyone who can't probably should have no business working with the human body.

    Karen,
    My concern here, MR. Knox, that you are trying to drum up business on this forum-using a device for a disorder that the maker does not even claim it helps.
    This should be right up your 'medically qualified' ally (Celia, you're going to love this one... another from "left field"). A new drug known as Lyrica recently hit the market (a few years back) and it was made, tested and intended for use solely on shingles and diabetic neuropathic pain. Now just about every pain management Doc out there is prescribing its use for a variety of forms of nerve pain that it was never tested for and DOES NOT claim to treat. Nor do we know anything about its long term effects. Is that appropriate use of medicine by Drs? If it helps people is it appropriate to use? We wouldn't be where we are today in the field of health care and medicine if those involved didn't think outside the box imposed upon them by their predecessors. Any individual with an ounce of common sense would, and should, be able to connect the dots and look at further benefits of any given therapy.

    And how about Pilates? I know you're an advocate of it... so is it appropriate to utilize or promote its use as you have when it was never intended to treat scoliosis?

    And "deep massage"???? How do you extract "deep massage" from a device called a "micro-manipulator"? Do you have any understanding at all about what this device is doing? Do you have any understanding of the properties of fascial tissue? Or it's scientifically validated response to intelligent manipulation? Or how about its role in forming and maintaining the structural integrity and position of our bodies? Do you know why bracing actually works sometimes and what it is doing to this network of tissue?

    It doesn't seem as though some of you understand a bit of this and so I don't see how you're qualified to dismiss methods that work within this realm.

    As a medical professional I cannot, for the life of me, see how it can reposition a scoliotic spine permanently. It might be great for back spasm and is touted as giving relief to PTs who must administer deep massage.
    That's unfortunate, maybe you should redefine your expertise as a "medical professional". What type is that again? Wasn't it something to do with drugs? I wouldn't expect you to know as most Drs don't have the slightest clue either.

    Maybe this will help as a starting point: http://www.fascia2007.com/about.htm

    structural

  10. #40
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    Celia,
    I've had enough of your questioning my chosen path and insulting my doctors. I'm perfectly aware that not everyone is having the same success and who knows what will happen during the adolescent growth spurt, ...
    I believe you're the one questioning my chosen path and insulting my methods... Right? All I've said to you is that you just can't say for sure what will happen. Unfortunately doubt and uncertainty permeate this topic of scoliosis relentlessly... in every matter at hand.

    If you're aware that not everyone is having the same success then... What do YOU suggest they do?

    You know, despite obvious disdain we display toward each other I can only wish and hope that someday you can open yourself up to consider the potential benefits of more than just bracing. It's a shotgun approach, not a bad one, but could still be nicely complimented with more specific intervention... Who knows, maybe along the way we would start to address the "unknown" cause(s) of this problem when we treat it more specifically, mindfully and intelligently.

    And I'm sorry, but I don't have a need to prove anything to you, like it or not.

    structural

  11. #41
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    Karen,

    I'm with you 100% of the way on this!!!! You go Girl!!!!

    Canadian eh
    Daughter, Deirdre born Oct 2000. Diagnosed with 60 degree curve at the age of 19 months. Serial casting by Dr. Hedden at Sick Kid's Hospital. Currently being treated by Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard in Montreal with the Spinecor brace and curve is holding at "2" degrees. Next appointment 2008

  12. #42
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    Toni,

    You don't really believe this charlatan do you????? He's agreeing to treat one of your friends for a couple of days, that proves nothing. On top of that no x-rays to show results!!!!! Ya, I know where this is going....

    Canadian eh
    Daughter, Deirdre born Oct 2000. Diagnosed with 60 degree curve at the age of 19 months. Serial casting by Dr. Hedden at Sick Kid's Hospital. Currently being treated by Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard in Montreal with the Spinecor brace and curve is holding at "2" degrees. Next appointment 2008

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celia Vogel
    Karen,

    I'm with you 100% of the way on this!!!! You go Girl!!!!
    Talk about chaining yourself to the titanic... !?

  14. #44
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    I don't think even your hot air will suffice to keep you afloat with this one


    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    Ray,

    Very well put. I hope that you can see I'm not here to discredit you, but rather quite the contrary. I happen to agree with everything you stated in the last couple of posts, and even prior. l
    Quote Originally Posted by Rayknox


    -A very common cause of the scoliosis appears to be a fall on the bottom - falling on ice or off a trampoline are regular culprits. This compresses the spine and the spine then gradually twists. If the fall happens at a young age then, with growth, the scoliosis increases in severity. The TAMARS treatment frees up the spine and removes the twists, sometimes very spectacularly. Success is measured by complete removal of pain and or large reduction if not complete removal of curvatures.

    -Can I state first of all that I got involved with this treatment because I had a son with 'idiopathic' scoliosis - lumbar and thoracic curvatures and a 2cm rib hump. I also had bad sciatic pain myself that I couild not get cured and my wife had a very badly twisted spine that was untreatable. We all now have backs that are practically normal. My son's scoliosis is 95% gone and there is no rib hump.

    -80 degree curvatures are obviously much more difficult than actually getting patients before they have been allowed to progress to this stage. Especially if the scoliosis began in childhood. Every patient is different - some respond very quickly, some are very hard work but they all show a reduction - many to zero.

    - a cerebral palsy patient, awaiting harrington rods to cure his scoliosis had his mainly lumbar curvature removed in two sessions. Unusually quick but true nevertheless. He returned a year later, out of his wheelchair with his spine in the same condition, and now riding motorcycles. In his words the fourth wonder of the world.

    - My first attempts at severe scoliosis ie>60 degrees were not very successful - there were improvements but not enough for my requirements. However with time and practice I now expect good results. I have a number of severe and not so severe patients under treatment at the moment, ranging from 16 years to 50 years. Very considerable improvements have been made in all of them and pain is gone in all but the oldest patient who has had severe sciatica for many many years now.

    -Wedge shaped vertebrae - this condition is seen as a major cause of kyphosis in ageing people. Generally we can remove this kyphosis, wedging or no wedging, and we find that there is a twist through the kyphosis. When the twist is reduced the kyphosis is reduced. We remove dowagers hump in the majority of patients.



    Rayknox then states he is getting advice from his cat ???


    Quote Originally Posted by Rayknox
    The 15 year old female patient that I mentioned was 2.5cm taller after her first treatment and this did not regress. You give me your scientific explanation of this! This patient by the way had x-rays, MRI scans, bone scans etc and never once was she told that she had curvatures. My cat could have seen the curvature when she lay down. My cat would now tell me the curvature is now gone.

    Canadian eh
    Daughter, Deirdre born Oct 2000. Diagnosed with 60 degree curve at the age of 19 months. Serial casting by Dr. Hedden at Sick Kid's Hospital. Currently being treated by Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard in Montreal with the Spinecor brace and curve is holding at "2" degrees. Next appointment 2008

  15. #45
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    Celia,
    What's your point? Do you have anything to say regarding your serious lack of knowledge on the subjects at hand? You've managed again to skirt around every question I ask and points on the matter that aren't insults or abusive remarks. You might want to take a step back and reconsider your purpose for posting this slanderous non-sense and abuse. It seems you may have some serious insecurities.

    I'm sure your making the right decisions for yourself and your daughter... but remember they are yours, and only yours to make. If others chose to educate themselves in the larger world beyond bracing alone, then let them. Nobody needs your abuse or conspiracy theories. It serves no productive purpose and detracts from the quality of these discussions.

    p.s.-I think the comment regarding his cat was sarcasm. That's just my opinion.... but hey, what do I know?

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