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Thread: Scoliosis and TAMARS treatment

  1. #121
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
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    Ottawa, Canada
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    370
    Heidel:

    I think Ray said in one of his posts that there is someone in Florida doing the TAMARS treatment. Ray?

    Ruth
    Ruth, 50 years old (s-shaped 30 degree scoliosis) with degenerative disc disease, married to Mike. Mother to two children - Son 18 and daughter 14. Both have idiopathic scoliosis. Son (T38, L29) has not needed surgery to date. Daughter (March 08 - T62, L63).

  2. #122
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    N.Ireland
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    The treatment is being introduced in Florida by Advanced Spinal Technologies in Boca Raton.

  3. #123
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    May 2007
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    N.Ireland
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    I was asked to provide a quote from one of my patients.

    Quote: "My name is Judith. I am 35 years old. I was 4 1/2 when it was discovered I had scoliosis of the spine.
    From 4 1/2 years old I attended *** Hospital and until 11 years old had to wear back braces. I was called scarecrow and freak because of wearing these braces and I used to cry every morning going to school -----
    At 11 years old my spine was really curved and my consultant inserted a harrington rod into my back to straighten my spine. I was in plaster for 9 months and Mr *** told me when you get the plaster off you will be so straight. He was having a laugh because nothing changed and I had constant back pain in my lower back which I never had before.
    When I was about 23 years old Mr *** grafted up the discs in my lower back. I was in plaster for 9 months again. Still no ease with the back pain.
    Mr *** retired and my new consultant Mr B told me he couldn't do any more for me but I could try pain killing injections. I went once and the pain of them was worse than the back pain.
    So from about 1996 I am just taking pain killers.
    I then met Raymond and he said he would look at my back. I have had two sessions of therapy and he has done more on my spine than *** Hospital has done in 20 years. He has given me more freedom to move about. I was always very stiff. Also I was so self conscious of the curve I used to try and hide my back in baggy clothes.. Raymond brought the curve in my spine down 1 1/2 cm which is amazing. He has given me confidence and the back pain is a lot easier
    He has done more for me in two weeks than you can imagine. He has changed my life completely. Words cannot describe the change he has made to me. "unquote

    That is a condensed version of what she wrote.
    Her doctor and her hospital cannot find her original x-rays so I had to work completely by feel.
    So again I cannot compare against her old condition. I understand that the hospital are still searching archives for her notes etc.
    Possibly this is a worst case scenario from an operation. But anyway you asked for a quote and that is one.

  4. #124
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Washington DC
    Posts
    50
    Quote Originally Posted by Rayknox
    Hi There,
    Because the treatment is reasonably new, full clinical trials have not been completed yet. However Advanced Spinal Technologies in America are proceeding gradually down this route. Ray.
    Hi Ray,

    Clinical Trials in the US must register in the Clinical Trial Database, controlled through the Department of Health and Human Services. Can you please list your clinical trial registration number(s)? I'd be interested in taking a look at your trial protocols...

    Same for any European trials.

    -Prfbones
    "The plural of anecdote is not data" --Frank Kotsonis

    Ph.D. in Bone Biology
    Harrington rod and Leuke sublaminar wires 2/1986, fused T4 to T12.
    First revision 3/1987 fused pseudoarthrosis, placed CD instrumentation from T10-T12.
    CD instrumentation removal 10/97 following breakage.
    Leuke wire removal 4/99.
    Salvage surgery; Harrington removal 1/2000, fused to L2.
    Ruptured disc, fusion extension to L4 3/2016.
    Surgeons: David Bradford, Francois Denis, Mike Lagrone

  5. #125
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    Jan 2008
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    13
    So that was it? No more updates on this amazing treatment? Another scam.

  6. #126
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    N.Ireland
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    Progress is being made. The treatment is definitely not a scam. Equipment has been placed in several locations (hospitals etc ) in the U.S. It takes time to be proficient with the treatment so this is a factor as well. The company I am hoping will be doing trials in America are going slowly - raising funds etc.
    I have been back in Florida doing some more training and helping with treatments.

  7. #127
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    4

    My personal experience with TAMARS

    Hi all,

    Just responding to the following post as I've been a patient at Ray's clinic since October 08':
    Quote Originally Posted by gerbo View Post
    ray, it really would be great if you could get some of your succesfully corrected patients to write something on this or the scoliosis-support forum.
    Firstly although this thread has gone on for several years and I haven't read every post I felt I should chime in with my two cents.
    After doing a lot of googling on scoliosis treatments I discovered this thread and from there discovered Rays clinic in Belfast. I'm 27 and based in Cork (Southern Ireland) and have been suffering from a number of scoliosis induced back problems for the last four years particularly. I've had an x-ray which showed an obvious curve and tried extensive treatments from chiropractors followed by Osteopaths with absolutely no progress.
    So as I was getting nowhere and a bit desperate with my worsening symptoms, I decided to give the Tamars option a shot and hopped on a plane to belfast for the day.
    After just a single session I couldnt believe how much better I felt! I can assure everyone that its just as good as all the other testimonials you've heard.
    Also my mother who had been having alot of lower back pain has had an even better response to this treatment after just two sessions.
    So at this point after 4 sessions approx 80-90% of my symptoms are simply gone. Not a bad result so far!
    All in all I'm happy I tried it, although it was an easy decision as it is so low risk. I just dont get why anyone suffering daily wouldnt give it a shot when you have nothing to lose??

    If any of the more skeptical readers have any questions feel free to give me a shout.

  8. #128
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    NJ
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    1,291
    You've had 4 sessions. Many of us have had similar results with alternatives - myself included. However, in time, most of the benefits seemed to disappear and if we had significant curves no correction was ever permanent.

    You do not say how large your curves are.

    We see many posts by members using a few treatments/months of an alternative and rave about it--but not one has come back with permanent results when treatments were stopped. Some have spent enormous amounts of money doing this.
    Original scoliosis surgery 1956 T-4 to L-2 ~100 degree thoracic (triple)curves at age 14. NO hardware-lost correction.
    Anterior/posterior revision T-4 to Sacrum in 2002, age 60, by Dr. Boachie-Adjei @Hospital for Special Surgery, NY = 50% correction

  9. #129
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    Jan 2008
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    NC
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    Quote Originally Posted by danieloc View Post
    (snip)
    If any of the more skeptical readers have any questions feel free to give me a shout.
    As I understand it, because scoliosis can occur without associated pain, surgeons claim that scoliosis doesn't cause back pain.

    Now that may be semantics but I think you are not claiming that TAMARS corrected your curvature but only that you got some relief from pain, yes?

    If so, doesn't that support the claims of surgeons who say the curve alone is not causing pain but there is always some other reason?

    I saw a video of the treatment. It likes like a little massager. So I assume this is a type of assisted massage or something?

    What exactly are the TAMARS claims w.r.t. scoliosis?

    I had a crushed disc. I suspect the action of this little massager would have sent me through the roof before the vertebra fused. It would have been intolerable.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  10. #130
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    4
    Hi Karen,

    I suppose your main point is: "wait and see, all of that pain will soon return"

    Over the xmas break I spent about a month in between appointments while on holiday. During which I did quite a bit of very demanding physical activity such as advanced level windsurfing, sailing running etc, all things that usually aggravate me, I can say truthfully that I returned in as good a state as i left. Perhaps a month isnt long enough to convince you but I can only report on my experience thus far.
    however truth be told with the freedom I've gained already, if it took a monthly visit to sustain my present condition I'd be more than happy with that. As long as i can continue to speak of my symptoms in past tense.

    its a fair point to say that time will tell eventually. I did explain though that I've given 3-4 years to the chiropractic and osteopathic options with only backwards progress. So I'm comparing my experience so far to these more 'mainstream' options where each practitioner was full of great promises.
    The chiropracter who x rayed me at the time (3 years ago) didnt give me the exact curvature in degrees but it was obvious that my spine was 'S' shaped. I could also see and feel the unevenness myself, which has now been greatly reduced, I calculate this by the highly scientific process of placing my hand across my lower back.. the change in posture and form is just so obvious.

    I'd like to get a hold of that xray again for a comparison but my condition was bad enough to have had a significant negative effect on every aspect of life. Sleeping/exercising/driving and working at the office were all constant uncomfortable and painful experiences. I'm sure this sounds very familiar to you.

    Oh and by the way did I mention my own mother hasnt even bothered to return after her second visit a couple months ago? ya, no relapse there. no sign of the former sciatica/lower& upper back pain so far. and yes she's done the whole chiro/osteo treadmill as well.

    anyway I do promise that if your prediction of total relapse comes to pass in at all, I will report back truthfully!

  11. #131
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    4
    Hi Pooka,
    At this point I'm reporting my experience where I've seen both a reduction in curves and pain. Your other questions are probably more for Ray to talk about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    As I understand it, because scoliosis can occur without associated pain, surgeons claim that scoliosis doesn't cause back pain.

    Now that may be semantics but I think you are not claiming that TAMARS corrected your curvature but only that you got some relief from pain, yes?

    If so, doesn't that support the claims of surgeons who say the curve alone is not causing pain but there is always some other reason?

    I saw a video of the treatment. It likes like a little massager. So I assume this is a type of assisted massage or something?

    What exactly are the TAMARS claims w.r.t. scoliosis?

    I had a crushed disc. I suspect the action of this little massager would have sent me through the roof before the vertebra fused. It would have been intolerable.

  12. #132
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    Jan 2008
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    NC
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    Quote Originally Posted by danieloc View Post
    Hi Pooka,
    At this point I'm reporting my experience where I've seen both a reduction in curves and pain. Your other questions are probably more for Ray to talk about.
    How much did your curves reduce?

    (N.B. This will require before and after radiographs measured by the same competent person. I am not sure that chiros have the requisite training to measure Cobb angle not that it isn't easy once the end vertebra are chosen.)
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  13. #133
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    May 2007
    Location
    N.Ireland
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    My only comment about this patient is 'let the treatment speak for itself'.

    As regards the pain from scoliosis, in the early stages there can be no pain, but when the discs start to degenerate due to the twists in the spine, there will rarely not be pain, or numbness,or muscle weakness etc,or a combination of lots of problems.
    And your crushed disc. what caused that.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayknox View Post
    My only comment about this patient is 'let the treatment speak for itself'.
    Patients are obviously NOT competent to tell you the before and after Cobb angles unless they are told what they are by a radiologist or orthopedic surgeon. If you didn't know that then you should not be delving into medical claims as you have been.

    Why don't you just do before/after radiographs and document what you are claiming and also document how long any correction lasts after the last treatment.

    I think you realize this is the evidence that is required to back up your claims.

    I further think you realize that you can't pony this up and are trying to deflect and divert.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  15. #135
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    N.Ireland
    Posts
    72
    Pooka1
    I have been made well aware(by posts) of the need for x-ray evidence before commenting on this forum. I do understand the scepticism from people who have been there and done it with various treatments and are no better off. Hence I do not post very often.
    We do not x-ray in this clinic (I don't like subjecting people to lots of x-ray exposure) but occasionally patients have their own x-rays before and after. Not enough of them to satisfy a full trial however.
    There are visible changes to the spine such as kyphosis reduction that can be measured without x-rays and these we do measure.
    My own son had scoliosis with a rib hump on one side so I know the changes that were made on him.(and they are permanent)
    If Daniel comes back and says the whole spine reverted back to its original shape after a few months then I will expect to be ridiculed. And rightly so.

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