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Thread: Scoliosis and TAMARS treatment

  1. #16
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    Hi Toni,
    I agree on the x-ray front, but the problem I am finding is that it is very difficult for the patients to get their x-rays released by their doctor. One patient has been trying to get them for 3 months now, and she would be a very good example as she had a 'severe' scoliosis now reduced to very moderate. I need the x-rays to show the change, but she was told she needed surgery and now looks so normal she will not take it.
    Anyway I will keep you posted and if you wish to send someone over I will treat supervised by a GP. If you want a contact number I will send a private message.Thanks for 'listening'
    Ray.

  2. #17
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    Question TAMARS for scoliosis

    Another forum member has written last year that she tried the treatment; she never got back to us to rave about her success.

    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/archi....html-(Eleniki)

    Someone else was trying to sell us that program in 2004(Mr. scoliosis).

    What does the treatment cost and what is the usual duration? Also, how long does the correction last after treatments stop???
    Original scoliosis surgery 1956 T-4 to L-2 ~100 degree thoracic (triple)curves at age 14. NO hardware-lost correction.
    Anterior/posterior revision T-4 to Sacrum in 2002, age 60, by Dr. Boachie-Adjei @Hospital for Special Surgery, NY = 50% correction

  3. #18
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    I have to be skeptical on this as well... I tried researching TAMARS and on websites there are only original (if any) pictures of the scoliosis patients. If the treatment cured the scoliois pictures of corrections would be posted and patients would be raving about the treatment on these forums or elsewhere.

  4. #19
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    We charge rates comparable to physio. Usual treatment time is 1 hour.

  5. #20
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    Most patients with considerable curves, the ones you suggest you can help and have helped, are likely to be under regular review at an orthopaedic clinic. Even if you cannot get the xrays, the patient should be able to get the clinic letter(s) from the consultant to their GP describing this "miraculous" recovery, which would be quite good evidence.

    by the way; what exactly did you mean by "my son's idiopatic scoliosis was due to a crash at 14". If it was due to a crash it wasn't idiopatic, was it? Even without the crash "idiopatic scoliosis" doesn't develop at age 14 (although it might be picked up than first" Could it be that the injury of the crash caused muscle spasm, which caused a temporary scoliosis which disappeared once the effects of the injury wore off?

    just curious

  6. #21
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    Raynox,
    You did not answer my question:

    Also, how long does the correction last after treatments stop??
    Karen Ocker

    Also, if the treatment is not covered by NHS what must a person pay out of pocket????
    Original scoliosis surgery 1956 T-4 to L-2 ~100 degree thoracic (triple)curves at age 14. NO hardware-lost correction.
    Anterior/posterior revision T-4 to Sacrum in 2002, age 60, by Dr. Boachie-Adjei @Hospital for Special Surgery, NY = 50% correction

  7. #22
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    Poor guy.... I'm not an advocate of empty promises and such but maybe we could look past the particulars of his choice of wording at times and open ourselves to learn more about this approach. I'm just sitting on the fence with this one, but the usual biting remarks prompt me to say a few words. (Original sources for the quotations will remain nameless as I don't mean to personally offend anyone.)

    Do you give a money back guarantee??
    Have any doctors been known to give their patients their money back when they return years later with moderate to severe back pain, broken hardware, nerve damage or failed fusions? Just curious... .

    Is the treatment administered by a medically qualified doctor, or just an osteopath, chiropractor or other such practitioner?
    Just to clarify, an osteopath in the US is a medically qualified doctor, equal to MDs.

    How is it possible to say that scoliosis is caused by "a fall on the bottom" when everyone you ask is likely to remember falling thus at some point in the past, but only a handful of people develop scoliosis? Why would a brief shock to the spine cause it to "compress and twist", if there is no damage to the shock-absorbing intervertebral discs?
    Obviously a fall on the coccyx will not cause scoliosis in everyone who incurs such a trauma... no two injuries are exactly alike. However if the fall is severe enough and the orientation/direction of impact is 'just right', it can cause a deviated fixation of the tailbone (coccyx) which then disrupts normal spinal mechanics. When you bend your spine in any direction the coccyx must be free to move accordingly and when it is fixated it will consequently cause deviation of the remainder of the spine above. It's not so much due to the force of impact "compressing" the spine, although if one caught it just right it certainly could compromise the discs as they attempt to absorb the impact, leading to an ideopathic scoliosis as the body aims to protect the injured disc(s) from further rupture/damage.

    If it was due to a crash it wasn't idiopatic, was it? Even without the crash "idiopatic scoliosis" doesn't develop at age 14
    What type of scoliosis (lateral curvature of the spine) would you call it then? Infantile? Structural? Congenital? ... Ideopthic sounds most appropriate to me. Ideopathic being of 'unknown' cause or developing later in life. It sounds like your confusing a general ideopathic description with adolescent ideopathic scoliosis, or AIS.

    Someone else was trying to sell us that program in 2004(Mr. scoliosis).
    Why is it that the presumed intentions of anyone coming on here to share other non-surgical approaches to management is often considered to be "selling" something? If someone does Pilates as a form of exercise have they fallen prey to the mass marketed sales pitch for Pilates in recent years? Maybe people are just trying to share these lesser known approaches with others. The only reason Pilates and Yoga is so popular and widely accepted is because it has become BIG business and 'trendy'... in other words it was marketed well and many are reaping the financial rewards of that marketing. (tight abs and butt, obsessed with 'control' and rigid cores ...the american dream! ) Are there any substantial studies done with Pilates to validate its use or long-term effect on scoliosis? Why not consider what Ray has put forth, or others in the past, as being potentially useful?

    Structural

  8. #23
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    Structural,
    Perhaps the "poor guy" is being given a hard time because a lot of us on this board have gone thru the searching for an easy fix, human nature being what it is. The same people discovered that "easy" isn't what it is advertised to be. Never mind the time wasted, the amount of $$$$$$$ involved can be very devastating, without results.

    I think we should be picking apart the wording being used. If he can't/doesn't know the differance between idopathic/congential etc. then perhaps what is being advertised is a possible real problem!
    SandyC

  9. #24
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    Sandy,

    Fair enough... I see your point. But should other well intended folks or practitioners be treated with disdain for your own misconceptions that there is an "easy fix" to this problem. It seems like what you're saying is that human nature leads us to search for quick and easy solutions (and I agree that most are not interested in investing any significant time into the care and management of their bodies until something actually goes wrong enough to create noticeable problems) and if that doesn't work we should jump to the other end of the spectrum and consider the most radical and life changing ones. Sounds like a case of massive societal bipolar disorder... .

    I do believe there is a balance somewhere in the middle that can be utilized intelligently as a first line of defense.

    I can see where you're coming from and I notice it in my own practice. People come in often wanting "miracles" with as little effort and commitment possible. People expect the quick fix because they would rather buy a new pair of shoes or outfit, go to dinner at a nice restaurant, go to the movies, take an expensive vacation, etc. rather than invest in their own health. Many folks will put more time, money and energy into maintenance of their home or car than they will in the maintenance of their body. And in the end, they wait until things get so bad that surgical intervention and/or drug therapy are the only real options, ... and the last ones.

    So I have to ask: Is it the practitioners driving this 'advertising' scheme for quick fixes, or those seeking out the "easy fix"? I think it's a little of both... practitioner and the patient. Some practitioners are just greasy jerks out to take peoples money, and others are trying to compete with their 'greasy' colleagues' success at doing so by advertising 'quick fixes'. And lastly, there are in fact some good apples out there who care about their patients and promise nothing but the best treatment they can offer with honesty and integrity.

    I don't know this guy, and as I said, I'm on the fence regarding this one (I myself am skeptical that just a few hours of treatment is going to have that significant of an effect... but it doesn't mean that it's totally ineffective). But it still seems quite critical... why don't those involved in the discussion do some searching to learn more about the work... how it works, what is its premise, how does it achieve these supposed results... and ultimately does it sound logical and reasonable. Maybe it would offer some more insight into what he's talking about. But to sit back and say 'show me the studies and research etc.' is simply antagonistic rather than a productive inquiry into unknown territory.

    I don't recall him not knowing the difference between ideopathic and congenital scoliosis, but maybe it's somewhere in there... . However, at the same time, there have been other topics on this forum of which many of you knew nothing or little about but people still chose to offer their opinion on it. Is that appropriate?

    Structural
    Last edited by structural75; 05-26-2007 at 05:48 PM.

  10. #25
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    Structural,

    Thanks for jumping in on this thread and trying to help, but if you read, you'll see that Ray answered all of my questions himself. I was actually pleased with the answers he gave me and I don't require anyone else answering on his behalf. Ray has accepted that he will get hard questions from people on boards such as this one, but I think that it's to his credit that he answered everything I asked honestly.

    You have missed the context of our conversation. Ray's based in Northern Ireland which is part of the UK, and here in the UK chiropractors are NOT qualified doctors. In addition, we addressed the "would you ask your surgeon for a money-back guarantee" question too.

    Ray has faith in his device and is in talks with an extremely well-respected London university to run proper clinical trials. Whilst I could not yet recommend Ray's treatment to anyone, I respect the way he answered all of my questions with honesty, I respect him for offering to treat someone I sent him for free in order to prove that his device works, I respect that he has admitted the limitations of his treatment, and I will definitely be staying in touch with him to see how he gets on with the London university.

    Regards,

    Toni
    Last edited by tonibunny; 05-26-2007 at 06:08 PM.

  11. #26
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    Toni,
    First, please don't patronize me... My skin has toughened up since coming to this forum... and secondly, I did read the entire thread... . I would expect someone to respond as you have... they usually do. It's interesting how several people can jump on a wagon together and come at Ray with doubtful and sarcastic remarks but when one person pops forth to point it out, well now I'm in the wrong. ????

    I wasn't attempting to answer on his behalf. I was, however, casually commenting on a few points/questions/ideas from my own perspective and clinical experience. Seeing as how everyone else has been free to do the same with me and my previous postings, ... What's the harm???

    I didn't accuse you of anything, so why the tense response here? It was actually a couple of others who presented some questions and comments to him in a negative tone... I think it's obvious that I respect this total stranger and am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, partly because I've been in his shoes before and YES, he does show honesty and integrity in his responses. So what's the problem here again?

    No, I have not missed the context of your conversation... and I was referring to "osteopaths" in the US not chiropractors in the UK. Is TAMARS treatment solely used in the UK? I recall seeing this device demonstrated here in the states. Besides, why would it be more important to have an MD oversee its use when it is designed to mimic the work of manipulative practitioners such as Osteopaths? Wouldn't "qualified" oversight be more appropriate from someone who actually knows what the machine is doing? MDs are generally clueless about manipulative work, so how do they qualify as the leading experts here?

    In any case, onward with your discussion. Sorry to interrupt. Next time I'll ask for your permission.

    Structural
    Last edited by structural75; 05-26-2007 at 09:18 PM.

  12. #27
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    I am out of the country at the moment and have just a couple of minutes to write a quick few words on a borrowed computer. When I return I will respond to a lot of the interesting points that have been raised. I want to consider my replies carefully as everything I say is being picked apart by some people but interesting comments never the less. I don't mind criticism if it is constructive.
    Ray.

  13. #28
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    Mar 2004
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    Rayknox,

    I don't think anyone needs to pick apart your words to see that your overall message is a bit over the top! Who do you think you're kidding???? You then have the gall to make these assertions without x-rays to back up your claims????? GET REAL!!!!!


    Just the other day I was wondering when we were due for another lively discussion/debate with alternative practitioners making unsubstantiated expensive claims and here we are
    Last edited by Celia; 05-27-2007 at 11:32 AM.

    Canadian eh
    Daughter, Deirdre born Oct 2000. Diagnosed with 60 degree curve at the age of 19 months. Serial casting by Dr. Hedden at Sick Kid's Hospital. Currently being treated by Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard in Montreal with the Spinecor brace and curve is holding at "2" degrees. Next appointment 2008

  14. #29
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    Nov 2005
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    Please, calm down chaps!

    Structural, I just tried to point out that I had got answers from Ray and was happy with what he has told me. He hasn't tried to claim a miracle cure; he's excited about the possibilities of his treatment and he is seeking to have proper studies done. I respect his honesty and I wish him well because he could well be onto something, and he's happy for me to reserve judgement for the time being.

    It does seem that your comments about my discussion with Ray were somewhat inflammatory, when in fact our discussion (which *was* in the context of medical treatment in the UK) has been calm, friendly and respectful. Whilst I did make doubtful comments, none of them were sarcastic, and I certainly didn't gang up on him with anyone else!

    I have warmed to Ray because he is arranging to have studies done by a very well respected London university, which will by necessity incorporate the use of x-rays. Until these studies are done I shall reserve judgement.

  15. #30
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    Toni,

    Point taken... thank you and my apologies for any inflammatory remarks. I hope you realize that it wasn't you that I was referring to, ...as you said, you were healthfully skeptical but having a respectful conversation as well. Trust me, I'm not looking to begin another insidious debate with the less informed. We're all adults here and I would presume that we're all capable of educating ourselves outside of this forum... to each his/her own.

    structural

    Celia,

    I myself was wondering when you'd chime in on this one.

    There was a time, not so long ago within the past century that what we now consider to be 'conventional'' medicine was in fact the "alternative". If we're going to be sticklers about 'scientific' medicine then consider this. When was the last time you read or knew of a study done on all of the thousands, if not more, combinations of drugs administered to millions of people every day? Sure, they do studies on the individual drugs themselves, but are there studies to substantiate and confirm the safety of any number of combinations often prescribed? No there is not. So we have no idea what the potential consequences of these combinations may have in the long run. That's not 'scientific' medicine, that's educated guessing at best.

    Last I knew Celia, you brace your daughter. Now if that's not "alternative" to surgery and drugs, what is? I don't appreciate your slander once again toward specialists of musculoskeletal conditions. You might have a leg to stand on when all of the spinecor MDs you support without question can get a grasp on the inadvertent arise of tenacious secondary curves from their brace. Their claim that the secondary curves are "inconsequential" are just as "unsubstantiated" as anything put forth here!

    By the way, "expensive claims"... ? Do you realize how much treatment one could receive for the equivalent cost of the spinecor brace alone, never mind all the Drs visits, x-rays, travel expenses, additional straps and the duration of all that spent forcing the body against its inherent will? People don't need to spend years doing something if it doesn't show improvements... at least they should be wise enough not to. I don't think Ray was suggesting to discard everything else and spend enormous amounts of money on something if it's not working. Doing these things in combination would seem ideal to me, but that's obviously just my opinion... I know you like to put all of your eggs in one basket.

    structural

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