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Thread: Clear institute! Been there. Done that

  1. #1
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    Clear institute! Been there. Done that

    OK. I am going to try to keep a long story short here. Some of you may remember I was talking a while back about going to the clear institute in Minnessota. Well, I did. I went for one week in march at a cost of $3000 U.S plus airfare and hotel from Vancouver Canada. You may have already read in some other previous posts a little about the treatment methods so I won't fill this post with that stuff. I will just get straight to the good stuff, the results! I have had chronic pain 24hrs a day from curves not typically associated with such. Before going I had curves of 23 and 25 measured by my last radiologist in Canada and confirmed by Dr. Woggon at 23/26 before treatment. After treatment................? 13/18 amazing eh!?Along with that, a number of other pseudo scientific positive results! Great huh? ..........Well not so fast. Pain.... unchanged. I had my concerns to say the least about the whole deal so I went to confirm these measurements again with my radiologist in Canada two weeks later......... 24/26....... huh what do ya know. Strange? I am sure you are sensing my sarcasm by now.
    Anyways I could write a book on this so I will hit you with my key thoughts about the treatment. Problems...... 1.had about 20 or more different treatment methods going on in the same day. Made me wonder how one could scientifically determine what treatment was doing what. 2. some of the key treatment methods that have been supposedly reducing curves had recently been significantly changed (like I mean total opposite). 3. some key treatment methods had been recently altered because they were causing the problem they were supposed to be fixing! ( will elaborate later) .
    Anyways, you get where I am going with this. I have more goodies I will share at a later date. But let's just say there were even more serious concerns I had than these.
    Now, I would love to say I came up with this myself, but in fact my wife looked at photos of my before and after xrays from the clinic in Minnessota and came up with a theory. Here it is. Before treatment, xrays were taken breathing out...... and after treatment xrays were taken breathing in, thus resulting in a positive looking post X-ray. Sound too simple? I presented my theory to the radiologist in Canada and pretty much had our theory verified with about 95% accuracy (based on her best guess). So you can draw your own conclusions. I made a suggestion a number of months ago about wanting to make a contribution to a new fund, to send a forum member to the clear institute. Lots of people pooh poohed that. Haha! And that is O.K, I was only trying to provoke some thought. So here is my little contribution to investigating a non surgical alternative to scoliosis reduction, I tried it myself.
    I had hopes about the treatment, but I am a born skeptic and was expecting the worst. Kinda one of those things I had to get out of my head and give it a shot. Can't succeed if you don't take a chance. All the best, Bish.

  2. #2
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    Amazing..... although I'm not surprised! I would *never* pay good money to shysters like that! How do these people continue practicing???? Will you demand a refund?


    *
    Last edited by Celia; 04-19-2007 at 11:31 AM.

    Canadian eh
    Daughter, Deirdre born Oct 2000. Diagnosed with 60 degree curve at the age of 19 months. Serial casting by Dr. Hedden at Sick Kid's Hospital. Currently being treated by Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard in Montreal with the Spinecor brace and curve is holding at "2" degrees. Next appointment 2008

  3. #3
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    Well the only way I could conclusively determine he was a shyster was to try it. This guy teaches this treatment method to chiropractors all over north america. I had a chiro in my area who has taken courses through him. Maybe I am a poor example of results but my guess is that he will never get a peer approved study substantiating any claims.

  4. #4
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    Forget peer reviewed studies! The guy is a scam artist! Believing his claims is like still believing in the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus as an adult.


    *

    Canadian eh
    Daughter, Deirdre born Oct 2000. Diagnosed with 60 degree curve at the age of 19 months. Serial casting by Dr. Hedden at Sick Kid's Hospital. Currently being treated by Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard in Montreal with the Spinecor brace and curve is holding at "2" degrees. Next appointment 2008

  5. #5
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    Well I am sure we could apply the same thoughts to a number of different medical practices we now accept as common treatment. Chiropractic itself is lacking alot of scientific evidence for treating many problems. If you try and pay for physio with no results is that a scam? Massage therapy? Doctors love to perscribe antiinflamatories for people with scoliosis. Anyone ever heard of it working? Scam? Failed operation resulting in adverse side effects. Scam? Not that I am defending this guy because "IF" he is manipulating results then that is a different story.

  6. #6
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    It's what Dr. Woggon is claiming to *accomplish* that's at issue here and giving people false hope, maybe stripping them of their dignity while charging them a minor fortune. I don't believe in taking advantage of desperate people and I feel very strongly about this because I was one myself.

    I had a chiropractor who claimed in his advertising to be a "scoliosis specialist" tell me that my 19 month old daughter should be wearing weights on her head to correct her scoliosis! This happened the day after I discovered her scoliosis and he was the one that ordered the very first x-ray that shows a curve of 60 degrees. He wanted me to come in for treatments 3 times a week for an indefinite period of time... I guess for her entire childhood or when she died of cor pulmonale - which ever came first??? He was very strongly against bracing and wanted to start off with gentle massage slowly working up to adjustments. A couple of days later I had an appointment with our paediatrician and he sent her records/x-ray in an envelop marked "urgent" off to Sick Kids. The following week is when we saw Dr. Hedden.

    I have in laws with scoliosis who routinely go to chiropractors, massage therapists, physiotherapists for *pain*. Pain is a relative thing and difficult to measure. How do I know if it's working??? They know perfectly well it won't change the degree of curvature or stop it from progressing. They will also never submit to surgery. Spinal fusion is far from perfect but there are many happy people with straighter backs living fairly normal lives. How long they'll be happy???? I don't know. I also don't know about anti inflammatory drugs and how effective they are.

    Let me put it this way, you're $3000.00 poorer but maybe a little wiser?

    *
    Last edited by Celia; 04-19-2007 at 04:49 PM.

    Canadian eh
    Daughter, Deirdre born Oct 2000. Diagnosed with 60 degree curve at the age of 19 months. Serial casting by Dr. Hedden at Sick Kid's Hospital. Currently being treated by Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard in Montreal with the Spinecor brace and curve is holding at "2" degrees. Next appointment 2008

  7. #7
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    I don't mean to direct the following at any particular person... I'm just sincerely curious about the following and maybe some of you out there who have had experience could share your thoughts on it.

    Why do so many people think that chiropractics is going to change a scoliotic curve? It may, at times, prove useful at providing temporary relief for painful symptoms... but what is the logic that leads one to believe it's going to effect the curvature?

    Also, it seems absurd right off the bat to think that one month of ANY treatment (including bracing) is going to make any substantial or long lasting difference. Reversing a curvature, or even slowing or stopping its progression, is a long-term process... certainly longer than a month, regardless of how many different treatments you get in a day (frankly, that's irrelevant... it's the proper application of the proper treatment and it's effectiveness at addressing the problem at hand that matters more than frequency).

    For the amount of money you spent on this stuff you could have received about 30 hours (or 9 months) worth of work from one of the practitioners I referred you to. At the very least, it would have certainly made a dramatic difference with your chronic pain and addressed some of the potential causes of the scoliosis rather than... ? I don't get it?

    Sorry folks for the rant... I mean no personal offense to any of you of course... I get a little overly-passionate about this kind of thing... and a firm believer in self-empowerment, being a part of the process in more ways than one. I just wish people were educated a bit more about their bodies so that they could make informed decisions about their health. Maybe then we wouldn't be seeing so many people getting taken advantage of. There's a serious problem that occurs when we know nothing and have to rely on 'health care professionals' to guide us in the 'right' direction... unfortunately we live in capitalistic societies that make that process a bit murky at times. We have one vehicle in this lifetime, I would think that it would be important to know something about it for our own benefit... It should be our right to know, not a privilege.

    Again, no offense to anyone...
    respectfully,
    structural

  8. #8
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    Poor Bish! Sorry they got your money and your time. Just a hug for you from me. THanks for warning the forum. If anyone else asks, we have it straight from the horses mouth that this treatment offers false hope. Hugs again, Cheryl.
    Last edited by cherylplinder; 04-19-2007 at 06:00 PM.
    God has used scoliosis to strengthen and mold us. He's good all the time!On this forum these larger curves have not held forever in Spinecor,with an initial positive response followed by deterioration. With deterioration, change treatment.The first year she gained 4 or 5 inches and was stable at around 20/20 in brace, followed by rapid progression the next year.She is now 51/40 (Jan2008)out of brace (40/30 in Spinecor) and started at 38/27 out of brace(Jan2006.) Now in Cheneau.

  9. #9
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    Exclamation

    Bish,
    You might want to contact one of the 2 links I posted below; you might prevent someone else from spending that money that could cause financial hardship and delay better alternatives.

    http://www.chirobase.org

    http://www.quackwatch.org (health fraud and quackery)
    Original scoliosis surgery 1956 T-4 to L-2 ~100 degree thoracic (triple)curves at age 14. NO hardware-lost correction.
    Anterior/posterior revision T-4 to Sacrum in 2002, age 60, by Dr. Boachie-Adjei @Hospital for Special Surgery, NY = 50% correction

  10. #10
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    Well Structural. It is not like I conciously chose to wander the earth in ignorance about my health. I am 35 now and I was unaware I even had this condition until I was 30 when the pain started. I never had desires to become a scoliosis specialist. In fact I had never even heard of it before. Much of my awareness of my condition has been made sifting through what little info the health system has provided, countless "capitalistic" psuedo proffessionals and the internet. What would you suggest I do? Go to university? To find out what? What doctors know about treating scoliosis? What you "KNOW" about scoliosis treatment?
    I am not sure if you looked into this clear institute thing but he did say that this would be a lifelong pursuit. IE specific exercise etc. So it's not like I walked in there thinking. Yee Hah!I am going to be cured in a week! I don't believe chiropractic is the answer to this problem, but this appeared to be more physio orientated than chiro, in fact he preached that traditional chiropractic care was not the answer. My main concern is are they the right exercises and or treatments? My thoughts are, likely not.
    As for your treatment suggestion it is next on my list. Because I have conclusive proof? No. Because it seems that it may be plausible and because I have to do something to better my life and my condition. As for your suggestion that it would have "most certainly" made a dramatic difference and address the "causes" of my scoliosis, I suppose that is possible but again a bit of a bold statement to say the least considering you know little of my condition. To be quite candid, I think you are the only person on this forum I have bumped into that proffesses such grand claims. Sounds similar to claims proffessed by some of the "pseudo proffessionals". What makes these claims different? Because "YOU" said so? Bish

  11. #11
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    Thanks Cherylplinder

    Thanks Cherylplinder. You are a sweetheart. Bish

  12. #12
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    Bish,

    Looks like my comments were taken the wrong way. What I meant by being educated is simply this... maybe incorporating some degree of human anatomy and physiology into our grade school educational system (besides the inadequate 'health' classes that currently exist) would be helpful. No this doesn't help your current situation.. but it just gets frustrating to hear person after person getting taken advantage of because they follow some inapplicable or misguided premise. I wasn't blaming YOU! I blame those practitioners taking advantage of YOU! We know more about how to manage our money, balance our checkbooks, maintain our cars, repair our homes, etc than we do about basic workings and maintenance of our own bodies. It was a more broad moment of thought for me... not necessarily relating to your situation... sorry I mentioned it... .

    I wasn't suggesting you weren't intelligent or that you go attend a university to study the matter... . There are many just like yourself who do their best to choose options that are available. My comment was just pointing to the question of, how could we make more informed decisions?... maybe by first understanding our bodies a little more and understanding the purpose, benefits and limitations of prospective treatment options... the latter being essential here. Maybe if we understood the premise behind these 'methods' and we understood some basic things about what is happening with a scoliosis then quite possibly we could avoid these 'traps'.

    And yes, it was a bold statement that I made.. probably more than was necessary... but I am clearly not here to 'diagnose' and speculate the specifics of your condition.. that's obviously inappropriate. So you know what, I have know idea if it will do a thing at all for you... but if you can find a more sensible or relevant approach than the one I initially suggested to you then by all means go for it.. best of luck to you...

    To be quite candid, I think you are the only person on this forum I have bumped into that proffesses such grand claims. Sounds similar to claims proffessed by some of the "pseudo proffessionals".
    Funy, because I've noticed several members of this forum who claim the montreal Drs to be "miracle workers".. this sounds a bit "grand" and potentially misleading to me.. don't you think? Wouldn't want to get someone's hopes up expecting a miracle... . So maybe you can get the notion now that I didn't mean to be making "grand claims"... let's keep it in the context it was meant for.

    And hey, sorry to come off sounding the way you described.. but it gets quite frustrating listening to people try the same things over and over and over only to continue getting the same results... . I do in fact have good intentions here, that aren't financially motivated. Maybe I'm just trying to encourage people to try something different. Call me what you like... but you don't know much about me either.
    structural
    Last edited by structural75; 04-19-2007 at 08:35 PM.

  13. #13
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    Hi Dave

    I'm glad you posted. I see we are in agreement about the xrays. I was very interested when you mentioned the breathing in and out and questioned my daughter about that. She said she remembered that too and also being put in rather peculiar positions for xray. She told me they had her slumping over for one of them (maybe the neck?). Of course, I wasn't in the room to see what they were doing. I think you are right on the money about the number of treatments, how can any of them be validated?

    I don't think Dave posted here to have people throw it back in his face, I think he has honest intentions of sharing his personal experience. I also took my daughter to the Clear Insitute and I wouldn't call myself a gullible person, I worked as a Med. Tech for 10 years and when I quit working to stay home with my kids, I was the assistant laboratory supervisor of my hospital. So I would have to say I am probably more informed about medicine than the average person and I certainly don't believe in the Tooth Fairy. But, I am/was a desperate parent and I do agree that there are people out there who will prey on our fears, but when the only thing left is a surgery that will change my child's life forever, be it good or bad, who has the right to question a parent's intentions or for that matter, to question what anyone will do with their own bodies and health? I can only try and do the best for my daughter like every other parent on this forum. Even though they aren't directed specifically at me, some of the comments on here are very hurtful, let's please try to stick to a constructive dialogue.
    Last edited by Sherie; 04-19-2007 at 11:53 PM.
    Sherie
    Mom to 2
    Sheena, 20 (56T/62L, Surgery with Dr. Lenke 11/15/07, Fused T4-L4, great correction)
    Bijan, 17

    link to photos and xrays
    http://s232.photobucket.com/albums/e...urgery%202007/

  14. #14
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    Thankyou Sherie!
    So nice again to have someone speak in my defense! Thankyou! I try to let it bounce off. It seems very strange to me on this forum at times. Some people expressing positive results with a treatment are instantly under attack. Some people expressing negative results get the same treatment. Can't win around here! If it wasnt for the good ones like you Sherie ( and others) it would make you wonder why you bother! All the best to you and your daughter, Bish

  15. #15
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    I did not think that structurals posting was in any way negative or unreasonable. Strictly speaking one cannot judge any treatment on the basis of one week trying, specially as the protocol clearly asks for lifelong continuation of the exercises. Same goes for schroth therapy (which has some (marginal)credibility, and ofcourse bracing. If after an initial excellent correction from a brace, the brace would be taken of, any correction achieved would disappear.

    I agree though with Bish that the multitude of treatment approaches and apparant swaps and changes is very suspect, and would not fill me with confidence and as i have said before; if there is no evidence of benefit, there is no evidence of harmlessness neither.

    Where structural kind of critisizes people for trying chiropracters, he forgets that he has got an awful lot of knowledge already and most parents faced with the shock of seeing their child with an apparantly nontreatable condition will just jump at anything that offers hope

    I am not surprised that parents believe claims being made (after all, the practitioners are able to spin an extensive web of pseudoscientific theory, which can sound so plausible) it surprises me more that the actual practitioners believe their own theories, and from my experience, they are genuinely convinced of the rightnessness of their own theories and therefor of the benefits of the treatment based on that theory. It seems a bit like religion (hope i am not wading in forbidden territory); if you believe in god, you believe in the healing power of prayer, if you believe in dislocated, subluxated out of place joints, you believe you can heal by putting everything back into place, if you believe in ying and yang....etc, etc. The only protection againstplausible psuedoscience ruling our life is going to be "hard scientific evidence" or at least the willingness to engage into a scientific, evidence based approach to treatment.

    Wishing everybody a very happy day ahead.

    gerbo

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