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Thread: Reason for back pain, ischias, foot pain, ankle pain, stiff back,...

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    Maybe this topic of discussion should be happening on another forum??
    Where then?

  2. #32
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    Where to post indeed??? Right here, right now. I do not want to get into a debate on the subject. The info is needed. I am just grateful this topic was introduced.

    HOWEVER about 7 yrs ago I bought a Si-Loc belt http://www.orthobionics.com/sn/back/siloclumbar.htm unknowingly thinking it would help me w/ pain in hips. It did and I wear it when doing housework & gardening. Showed doctor & he didn't acknowlege the problem.

    Then got into MAT therapy 4yrs ago http://www.muscleactivation.com/main.html and completely got rid of all pain in hips & lower back. She did most of her work on the feet and hips. Never did I think SIJD was a problem for me but my MAT therapist always told me not to sit cross-legged. Every time I did the pain came back. After reading this post thread I see now I have a SIJD problem.

    And it is more common than I thought. At a NSF Chapter mtg last month I wore the belt & had several scoli patients ask me about it for they had the same problem.

    If it were not for the experimental custom prototype brace I wore in the late 50s/early 60s, modern bracing treatments of scolosis would not exist. Perhaps new ideas should be listened to instead of debated. I for one find it disheartening to be attacked on this forum for postings about new ideas. As scoliosis patients, we have this forum to help each other - not to be dissuaded by non-scoliosis people who have opinions. Walk a mile in a scoli's shoes (if you have the courage) and then talk.

  3. #33
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    harmoniesdj,

    Perhaps new ideas should be listened to instead of debated.
    Wow... I have been in support of that idea since I arrived on this forum. I wasn't trying to 'silence' this topic, I just didn't see anyone else participating in the 'anatomy' lecture so I thought I'd discontinue my ramblings. ...?

    In any case, I suggested ending the discussion as it was getting somewhat technical and I didn't think that most folks here would see a use for it... apparently I was mistaken.. sorry harmoniesdj...

    I for one find it disheartening to be attacked on this forum for postings about new ideas.
    Again, I couldn't agree with you more...

    I do think SIJD is a relevant factor for some people and many folks with scoliosis may suffer from an SI joint dysfunction... But keep in mind it's not the joint itself that is usually the cause of dysfunction... it is the alteration in pelvic and spinal mechanics that creates SI joint dysfunctions.

    I work with musculoskeletal dysfunctions on a daily basis and experience has shown that sijd is more often a byproduct of structural imbalances, not the cause. And the proof is in the fact that when you address the cause (which is numerous, if not infinite in origin) the sijd resolves. If you're wearing a belt for sijd you are providing support to the dysfunctional sij, but it's not doing much to address the actual cause of the sijd... does that make sense... ?? I may not be articulating that very clearly. It's not unlike wearing a brace.. it doesn't speak to the cause of the scoliosis, it simply provides support for it, regardless of the cause.

    I think the initial preposition put forth on sijd was that it was the cause of all ideopathic (and possibly congenital) scoliosis... and this is simply not true... no debate required. There is plenty of evidence to prove otherwise in many conventional and non-conventional clinical instances.

    Healthy function of the si joints is almost entirely dependent on proper mechanics and relationships of the pelvis and the spine (sacrum, L5, L4, etc.) which in turn is dictated by the soft tissue balance coming up from the legs, into the pelvis and so forth... as well as neurologic functioning and visceral mobility. Scoliosis creates a discrepancy in these mechanics and therefore often leads to sijd. Keep in mind that the weight of the entire upper body (spine, ribs, head and arms) is bearing down and supported by just those two points... the si joints. The sacrum is wedged in between the two pelvic innominates and held together with ligaments. So you can begin to iagine how the function of these two joints would become compromised and problematic if the pelvis and/or spine were to lateral deviate from center, putting tremendous torque into this area in addition to the pre-existing weight.

    In any case, hope that clears things up a little... I'm glad the belt has been useful... SI belts are pretty common and are used for a variety of causes resulting in sijd.

  4. #34
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    harmoniesdj,

    As scoliosis patients, we have this forum to help each other - not to be dissuaded by non-scoliosis people who have opinions. Walk a mile in a scoli's shoes (if you have the courage) and then talk.
    No offense, but walking a mile in your shoes wouldn't make someone more educated on the matter (besides there are many folks out there with sijd without scoliosis). I was just offering my 'observations' and 'knowledge' on the matter at hand as a professional... "opinions" have little to do with this situation... the evidence is abundant, you just need to become aware of it. I wasn't "dissuading" anyone, I was legitimately questioning an outrageous proposition that all IS is caused by SIJD... Does that sound like a reasonable claim to you?

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    I do think SIJD is a relevant factor for some people and many folks with scoliosis may suffer from an SI joint dysfunction... But keep in mind it's not the joint itself that is usually the cause of dysfunction... it is the alteration in pelvic and spinal mechanics that creates SI joint dysfunctions.
    Many experts say it is. So two possibiities: You are wrong or the others are wrong. Who decides who is right?

    SI-dysfunction comes because other SIJ is not working properly. Reason for that is often malposition of the joint. It creates unlevelled pelvis and torsion. That torsion continues up to spine and to ribs. Perhaps that's why those ribs get stuck and curves come to spine. I believe so. So do many experts.

    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    I work with musculoskeletal dysfunctions on a daily basis and experience has shown that sijd is more often a byproduct of structural imbalances, not the cause.
    So what is SIJD? Is it pain and stiffnes on other SIJ? Or is that only a symptom of SIJD? What is the cause of SIJD?

    I have been "working" as a patient for many years trying many different treatments of many different experts. Most of them explain things just the opposite comparing to other collegues. So who is wrong and who is right if everybody believes it to be some other way? You are just one of many trying to explane it differently. I am too...

    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    If you're wearing a belt for sijd you are providing support to the dysfunctional sij, but it's not doing much to address the actual cause of the sijd... does that make sense... ?? I may not be articulating that very clearly. It's not unlike wearing a brace.. it doesn't speak to the cause of the scoliosis, it simply provides support for it, regardless of the cause.
    Yes. It stabilises the movement. It prevents back muscles from overwork as they try to stabilize asymmetrical movement.

    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    Scoliosis creates a discrepancy in these mechanics and therefore often leads to sijd. Keep in mind that the weight of the entire upper body (spine, ribs, head and arms) is bearing down and supported by just those two points... the si joints. The sacrum is wedged in between the two pelvic innominates and held together with ligaments.
    Twisted pelvis creates discrepancy. As well as twisted pelvis creates scoliosis. Like you said: sacrum is the base and if it is not straight the spine can't be either. Scoliosis is a compensation of that malalignment of pelvis and sacrum.

    If you see those scoliosis pictures, that are shown in every scoliosis site, they all have (9 out of 10) other ilium higher than other. But it is not because their legs are anatomically different. Otherwise a heel lift would correct it. It is because other ilium has an "upslip" and rotated.

    If you see pictures of surgically straightened spine you see that iliums are usually still unleveled even spine is straight...
    Last edited by expatient; 08-21-2007 at 07:40 AM.

  6. #36
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    Many experts say it is. So two possibiities: You are wrong or the others are wrong. Who decides who is right?

    SI-dysfunction comes because other SIJ is not working properly. Reason for that is often malposition of the joint. It creates unlevelled pelvis and torsion. That torsion continues up to spine and to ribs. Perhaps that's why those ribs get stuck and curves come to spine. I believe so. So do many experts.
    Who are these "experts"? Are they chiropractors who move bones without consideration for the soft tissue elements that are responsible for positioning the bones? Of course chiropractors will tell you that everything revolves around the 'static' alignment of the bones and that by moving them via "adjustments" they will somehow magically stay in place... without need to address the soft tissue that creates the torsions.
    SI-dysfunction comes because other SIJ is not working properly. Reason for that is often malposition of the joint.
    Why is the joint not working properly? If it is because of "malpositioning" then what creates that "malpositioning"? The soft tissue creates it! Imbalances tensegrity of the soft tissue network causes dysfunction of the joint they are meant to align and move.... .So it's not the joint itself that is the problem, it's merely a consequential byproduct of the two bones malpositioning themselves and causing stress/strain on the biomechanics of the joint. I guess I fail to see how a joint (the relational point between two bones) can mysteriously move itself out of place.???

    If these supposed "experts" are so knowledgeable, then why do they often fail to address this issue.. or propose that by adjusting the joint the soft tissue responsible for moving the bones will no longer be influential?
    So what is SIJD? Is it pain and stiffnes on other SIJ? Or is that only a symptom of SIJD? What is the cause of SIJD?
    The causes are numerous... .
    Twisted pelvis creates discrepancy. As well as twisted pelvis creates scoliosis. Like you said: sacrum is the base and if it is not straight the spine can't be either. Scoliosis in a compensation of that malalignment of pelvis and sacrum.
    What is "twisting" the pelvis??? That's at the heart of what I'm trying to explain here. And I've seen many uneven sacral bases and many don't cause a scoliosis.
    If you see those scoliosis pictures, that are shown in every scoliosis site, they all have (9 out of 10) other ilium higher than other. But it is not because their legs are anatomically different. It is because other ilium has an "upslip".

    If you see pictures of surgically straightened spine you see that iliums are usually still unleveled even spine is straight...
    Upslip is a descriptive term for relative positioning... not a disorder or condition. You see the supposed upslips or anterior tilts/torsions because the pelvis is attempting to regulate the imbalances... upslips and anterior tilts (which often resemble and upslip) are the bodies functional means to attempt to level the sacral base at times.

    Surgical straightened spines often retain their pelvic torsion because surgery doesn't address that. All of the structural imbalances in the body, pelvis, legs and feet don't disappear just because the spine was surgically straightened. That is where I've proposed adjunctive treatments to be potentially very beneficial to people... even though they've had surgery to fix the spine in place it still often requires management of the rest of the body and its numerous compensatory patterns that arose from the scoliosis.


    Who is right? Well, I'm not proposing that my 'opinion' is the gold standard. But I will suggest that the theory you're "experts" propse be re-examined because it leaves a lot of questions unanswered and some of it is implausible and simply neglects very important factors. There are many who agree with me on this and share the same ideas and clinical experience. The fact remains that many people have to go to get their SIJ adjusted on a regular bases in order to maintain comfort.... so if adjusting the SIJ would solve all these problems then why doesn't it frequently hold?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    Who are these "experts"? Are they chiropractors who move bones without consideration for the soft tissue elements that are responsible for positioning the bones?
    Actually first expert was a doctor of physiatry who corrected it from me. Second was an other doctor of physiatry, who recently published a research about it:
    J Manipulative Physiol Ther. 2006 Sep;29(7):561-5. Reversible pelvic asymmetry: an overlooked syndrome manifesting as scoliosis, apparent leg-length difference, and neurologic symptoms.Timgren J, Soinila S.

    That doctor Timgren has excellent site where he explanes subluxation as malposition of SIJ. And he explanes with pictures how it can effect to our spine from sacrum to atlas and to legs too. That Soinila is a doctor of neurology...

    And the third source I found was a physical therapeutist Richard DonTigny who has a long history in the subject. He has been 10 years as a Member of Advisory board and World Congress on Low Back Pain and the Pelvis. He has written many documents about the subject.

    And many other doctors can be found who tell the same. They are not chiropractors! Like doctors Chamberger, Amaral, Spidler, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    I guess I fail to see how a joint (the relational point between two bones) can mysteriously move itself out of place.???
    It is not a mystery. Only a fall, slip, accident, traumatic force to buttock, etc. We have all had those as a child. But pains come after years of walking with twisted pelvis... Similar subluxation can happen like in Subluxatio capitulum-radii. It is well documented in medical science but most doctors don't know much about it. One medical library tells it is common in children. And it also describes how to correct it with manipulation. One other is TMJ as jaw subluxation/dislocation. TMJ is described in medical world form early years by Hippocrates and he also described how to correct it with manipulation. Still many doctors think it as a symptom of some disease if they see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    The fact remains that many people have to go to get their SIJ adjusted on a regular bases in order to maintain comfort.... so if adjusting the SIJ would solve all these problems then why doesn't it frequently hold?
    I also got tens of times that soft manipulation to correct my twisted pelvis. It didn't hold. But it will hold much better when it is moved back to its place with correct technique. Seems like only very few experts has that skill.

    Ofcourse it is not like new anymore when it is once damaged. But I have been ok for over two years now and I haven't been careful at all.
    Last edited by expatient; 08-22-2007 at 06:45 AM.

  8. #38
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    And the third source I found was a physical therapeutist Richard DonTigny who has a long history in the subject. He has been 10 years as a Member of Advisory board and World Congress on Low Back Pain and the Pelvis. He has written many documents about the subject.
    How about Diane Lee, Physiotherapist and board member for the World Congress of Low Back Pain. Also author of several books on spinal and pelvic dysfunction... known today to be one of the leading experts on the topic due to her clinical experience and scientific research. She would disagree with the theory your Drs are presenting.

    Actually first expert was a doctor of physiatry who corrected it from me.
    What did he "correct"? Do you realize how little movement actually ocurrs in the SIJ?

    That doctor Timgren has excellent site where he explanes subluxation as malposition of SIJ. And he explanes with pictures how it can effect to our spine from sacrum to atlas and to legs too. That Soinila is a doctor of neurology...
    I don't think it's rocket science to have a DR explain what a subluxation is... sorry, but I really don't see the brilliance in that. Joints move and can become misaligned to various degrees... if these DRs want to peer deeply into the joint and try to find what's causing it from within then fine... par for the course. But until these DRs and yourself recognize that the bones are not moving or fixating on their OWN and that the position of them is representative of the inbalanced tensegrity of the larger system.... I'm afraid we're missing each others point.
    It is not a mystery. Only a fall, slip, accident, traumatic force to buttock, etc. We have all had those as a child. But pains come after years of walking with twisted pelvis... Similar subluxation can happen like in Subluxatio capitulum-radii. It is well documented in medical science but most doctors don't know much about it. One medical library tells it is common in children. And it also describes how to correct it with manipulation
    Actually "subluxations" are highly debated in science... And it's hard for me to believe that these Drs "don't know much about" why this occurs... A traumatic fall/impact trauma wil have tremendous effect on the soft tissue as well as displacing the bones. In fact it's the stabilizing and bracing response coupled with adaptive and compensatory patterns that follow that cause the chronic "twisting" of the pelvis. If that weren't the case then the two bones would simply slide back into their appropriate place.... (have you seen firsthand the inside surfface of the SI Joint? There's no 'locking' mechanism or such and it's movement is so slight that displacement is a relative term.
    I also got tens of times that soft manipulation to correct my twisted pelvis.
    What exactly did you get? Massage is not going to correct those structural imbalances... I think I recall you talking about this before... one of the "Drs" you refered to was using adjustments along with massage techniques and such... sorry but massaging muscles won't do a bit of good for repositioning bony segments.

    I think it would be useful to examine 'why' the adjustments "work"... what is happening physiologically to the entire joint structure and surrounding tissue network.... Joints are not to blame here, there function and relative relationships to the whole are the influential factors. I may not have nearly all the answers, but I am starting with an understanding that the Drs you point out don't seem to be considering.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    How about Diane Lee, Physiotherapist and board member for the World Congress of Low Back Pain. Also author of several books on spinal and pelvic dysfunction...
    But she seems to explain only how to find SIJ pain? If there is no pain in SIJ or low back then what would she diagnose?

    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    known today to be one of the leading experts on the topic due to her clinical experience and scientific research. She would disagree with the theory your Drs are presenting.
    You can always find two experts who disagree, no matter what the subject is.

    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    What did he "correct"? Do you realize how little movement actually ocurrs in the SIJ?
    Yes. He corrected the position of that joint. It was "locked". But it was also moved out of its natural place. I gues few millimeters perhaps...

    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    Actually "subluxations" are highly debated in science... And it's hard for me to believe that these Drs "don't know much about" why this occurs...
    I have notised that too. And at the same time medical books are using that word on describing disorders..

    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    A traumatic fall/impact trauma wil have tremendous effect on the soft tissue as well as displacing the bones. In fact it's the stabilizing and bracing response coupled with adaptive and compensatory patterns that follow that cause the chronic "twisting" of the pelvis. If that weren't the case then the two bones would simply slide back into their appropriate place.... (have you seen firsthand the inside surfface of the SI Joint? There's no 'locking' mechanism or such and it's movement is so slight that displacement is a relative term.
    I have seen pictures. The surface is not slick. Once malpositioned it is not easy to move back. It needs a high force impact from the precise direction to slip and subluxate. And same time muscles must be relaxed. Like when you fall or are in an accident. So when that happens it is not easy to get back.

    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    What exactly did you get? Massage is not going to correct those structural imbalances... I think I recall you talking about this before... one of the "Drs" you refered to was using adjustments along with massage techniques and such... sorry but massaging muscles won't do a bit of good for repositioning bony segments.
    You remember wrong. No massage!

    It took over one hour for the doc to find out what was wrong with me. He diagnosed scoliosis, TOS and migraines. But when I said my legs were weak and sometimes I got cramps to my toe then he decided to check my pelvis.

    He palpated me while I did flexion test. Picture! During flexion my left SIPS lifted more than right. Also he diagnosed that my crista iliaca was leaning left while I was sitting.

    The doctor pushed my left ilium down while I was lying on my stomack on his treating table and my legs were hanging outside. He used quite much power doing that but it was fast, only about 3-5 seconds.

    After a minute I felt strtength coming to my legs and standing was much easier. Pelvis felt lighter and in flexion I could reach the floor first time in 20 years.

    First correction hold 3 weeks. Then one morning I woke up and my legs felt weak and tired. And soon back pain came back to my right side. Also burning pain to right SIJ. So I called and asked a new time to same doctor. I was lucky to get a time to same day because someone had cancelled.

    The doc was first angry and said it is not possible to be out of place again. But I asked him to recheck. Then he did same flexion tests and saw the same: left SIPS lifted more. Same correction and it held few days. Then the same symptoms came back: leg weaknes, right SIJ pain, muscle burning on middle of the back left side under shoulder blade and on neck right side.

    Then I tried to call the doc again but he had started his summer vacation and next free time was after 3 months. I was unhappy but I understood what was wrong. All I needed was to find someone who knew how to correct it. I already knew local chiropractic, naprapath, osteopath and PTs didn't understand about this because I had been seeing all of them many times before. They all treated my pelvis twisted pelvis, but only by stretching or "moving" it with different techniques.

    Then I explained the situation to my collegues at work and one man said his mother had the same problem and he went to one PT in the other city. I looked for his name and called him and went to see him. There I was explaned what was wrong and how it effected me. He also corrected my shoulder problem and migraine. No more TOS. For SIJ he used this technique.

    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    I think it would be useful to examine 'why' the adjustments "work"... what is happening physiologically to the entire joint structure and surrounding tissue network.... Joints are not to blame here, there function and relative relationships to the whole are the influential factors. I may not have nearly all the answers, but I am starting with an understanding that the Drs you point out don't seem to be considering.
    No muscle massage was used. After the treatment the new posture was felt clearly. And my legs were even; no more short left leg and pronation problem. My walking changed.

    I just wish someone would study this more. That is why I study and write about this. That doctor, who corrected me, is an old man. I hear he have had many visitors since I have started to write about this. Also that PT who did the 3rd correction have had many visitors to follow his work and learning his techique. Even medical experts. But they are very careful to start talking about this. Medical association can throw them out from the union and that would be the end of their carier.

    One of my aunt's freind had had 10 years of pain after having a child. She had bad pains but no-one could explain them. She visited that PT and got perfect help. She had both SIJs misplaced. That is over a year ago and still she is 100% pain free. I have spoken to her many times since that and she tells that her husband-doctor is afraid to speak about this. He is just happy to get his wife back to normal. But he could easily see the postural change in his wife.
    Last edited by expatient; 08-22-2007 at 11:38 AM.

  10. #40
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    But she seems to explain only how to find SIJ pain? If there is no pain in SIJ or low back then what would she diagnose?
    She does a bit more than just that....

    Yes. He corrected the position of that joint. It was "locked". But it was also moved out of its natural place. I gues few millimeters perhaps...
    What is "locking" the joint? Soft tissue fixates joints...

    I have notised that too. And at the same time medical books are using that word on describing disorders..
    A good example of them talking out of both sides of their mouths. For decades the medical community wouldn't accept chiropractics partly due to its subluxation theories. An interview with a chiropractor and researcher who spent countless hours doing radiologic reviews (x-rays) was once asked if he had ever seen a subluxation on an x-ray... his response was "Yes, with my eyes closed".
    I have seen pictures. The surface is not slick. Once malpositioned it is not easy to move back. It needs a high force impact from the precise direction to slip and subluxate. And same time muscles must be relaxed. Like when you fall or are in an accident. So when that happens it is not easy to get back.
    I have done numerous dissections and half the surface of the joint (the mobile portion) is "slick", consisting of hyaline cartiledge as in other joints... a gliding joint. The other half is fibrous meaning it is strongly adhered via dense connective tissue providing a pivot point of sorts for movement of the gliding portion to move around. Its malposition effects many other components of the pelvis including the hip joints, pubic symphasis and coccyx. When you fall in an accident most often the body is in a state of contraction to brace the fall... if not before, certainly upon impact do the tissues contract and prevent excessive movement of the joints. Although it may be too late at that point to prevent the movement, the tissue response remains long after the incident. We see this clearly when people sustain whiplash and feel "fine" immediately after the injury... the next day or two they wake up feeling as though they were hit by a train.

    So to unravel all that trauma intelligent soft tissue/connective tissue/fascial work must be done in the right places at the right time with precise skill. This doesn't involve just working where it hurts or working randomly on 'tight' tissues... .

    I don't doubt for a minute that you are doing better from this approach and the adjustments.. but you yourself saw your problems return following these adjustments... It's rarely ever that a simple adjustment is going to address all of the components of the problem. I happy that you're doing well and have benefited from the work of these professionals, but I see these sort of things being addressed in that manner all the time by PT's and chiropractors and they almost always return, with or without symptoms, or they return as strain in another area of the body because the torsion in the tissues was not addressed. I just can't buy into the concept that a specific adjustment is going to create miracles in that the rest of the system will just fall into place. There is far too much new evidence these days on the properties of fascia that shows that this segmental type of theory is severely outdated. It's time these Docs catch up with the latest research and re-explore/re-examine their theories on proposed mechanisms.

    Just my thoughts on all this. In the end, I respect your success but I just can't buy into the be all, end all nature of your theory on SIJ dysfunction and scoliosis. I hope others can benefit from what you've utilized... at the same time, I hope those Drs./PTs catch up with the times. A new perspective is not only sorely needed, but is already in action by a minority of Drs and health practitioners who can set their egos aside and practice truly objective and evolutionary medicine.

    structural

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    She does a bit more than just that....
    Yes her texts look good. But how she checks if the SIJs are in neutral position or not? She writes:
    "If there is increased motion when the SIJ is in a neutral position"

    What if motion is not increased? Does she compare them to each others? So what if both are off from neutral position?

    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    What is "locking" the joint? Soft tissue fixates joints...
    I'm sure they have a meaning in that. When upslip or malposition happens the ligaments hold the SIJ well in that new position. And only ligament or muscular treatment is not enough to move it back, especially if it has been out of place for years, since child. But ofcourse that treatment will release the tightness and pain. But they will come back...

    And it may not be locked but still can be out of place. So how do you diagnose that?

    What if 8yrs old girl is complaining heel pain and she seems to have bad posture, uneven iliums and other leg short but no pain or stiffnes in back or pelvis and she is very flexible.

    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    I have done numerous dissections and half the surface of the joint (the mobile portion) is "slick", consisting of hyaline cartiledge as in other joints... a gliding joint.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    The other half is fibrous meaning it is strongly adhered via dense connective tissue providing a pivot point of sorts for movement of the gliding portion to move around. Its malposition effects many other components of the pelvis including the hip joints, pubic symphasis and coccyx.
    But ofcourse. Many names for it's symptoms: PGP, piriformis syndrome, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    When you fall in an accident most often the body is in a state of contraction to brace the fall... if not before, certainly upon impact do the tissues contract and prevent excessive movement of the joints.
    Most people are quite relaxed when they fall...

    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    Although it may be too late at that point to prevent the movement, the tissue response remains long after the incident. We see this clearly when people sustain whiplash and feel "fine" immediately after the injury... the next day or two they wake up feeling as though they were hit by a train.
    Yes that is how it goes with SIJ upslip or malposition: Pain and stiffnes can come after many years...

    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    So to unravel all that trauma intelligent soft tissue/connective tissue/fascial work must be done in the right places at the right time with precise skill. This doesn't involve just working where it hurts or working randomly on 'tight' tissues... .
    Yes. Don't treat the symptom but the cause. And the cause is not always there where the pain is.

    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    I don't doubt for a minute that you are doing better from this approach and the adjustments.. but you yourself saw your problems return following these adjustments...
    Yes, but it held for days. Other adjustments hold only hours. And after few real adjustments I have been pain free for over two years. Befor that I had like 30 times of useless adjustment treatment from few different experts.

    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    It's rarely ever that a simple adjustment is going to address all of the components of the problem. I happy that you're doing well and have benefited from the work of these professionals, but I see these sort of things being addressed in that manner all the time by PT's and chiropractors and they almost always return, with or without symptoms, or they return as strain in another area of the body because the torsion in the tissues was not addressed.
    I have interviewed over 200 patients with the same story as I have: chiropractor, PTs, doctors, etc. did not help then. They didn't get good, great or even perfect help before they saw the same specialist that I did. And there are hundreds of more like them but I just don't have the time to interview them all...

    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    I just can't buy into the concept that a specific adjustment is going to create miracles in that the rest of the system will just fall into place.
    Usually not all. You have to treat all the problems to get a great result. But even treating SIJ alone gives a good results. Some might need more muscular treatment to make it stay but there are cases where perfect help had been received without any muscular treatment. And they have been fine over a year now.

    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    There is far too much new evidence these days on the properties of fascia that shows that this segmental type of theory is severely outdated. It's time these Docs catch up with the latest research and re-explore/re-examine their theories on proposed mechanisms.
    But latest researcers don't know how to do that effectively. Like I sain: If a doctors tries to push ilium and it doesn't help he makes a conclusion that it is impossible make it work by anyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by structural75
    Just my thoughts on all this. In the end, I respect your success but I just can't buy into the be all, end all nature of your theory on SIJ dysfunction and scoliosis. I hope others can benefit from what you've utilized... at the same time, I hope those Drs./PTs catch up with the times. A new perspective is not only sorely needed, but is already in action by a minority of Drs and health practitioners who can set their egos aside and practice truly objective and evolutionary medicine.
    This doc is talking about new times: Irwin Abraham, MD
    Last edited by expatient; 08-24-2007 at 07:18 AM.

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