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  • #61
    Originally posted by structural75
    ... Keep in mind that those undergoing spinecor treatment by the Doctors in Montreal are literally in the midst of a 'study' as we speak. We will not know anything about its long-term efficacy for years to come. Hopefully it works... time is of the essence.

    Since you don't believe in studies you probably are not *aware* that there is a study showing it's remarkable effectiveness! As for current patients undergoing treatment and having success with the brace *sans* vestibular testing/rehab, please refer to the Spinecor thread.

    Why don't you ask dr. Rivard whether he's happy with these tests and report back to us.
    Last edited by Celia; 01-14-2007, 02:49 PM.

    Canadian eh
    Daughter, Deirdre born Oct 2000. Diagnosed with 60 degree curve at the age of 19 months. Serial casting by Dr. Hedden at Sick Kid's Hospital. Currently being treated by Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard in Montreal with the Spinecor brace and curve is holding at "2" degrees. Next appointment 2008

    Comment


    • #62
      so, if someone would come to you and say; I've got scoliosis, I have heared that vestibular testing is going to help me, can you please tell me what benefits I could expect? Will it be worth the time, effort and money? What would you advice?

      same question for SI?

      Comment


      • #63
        Celia I love reading all your posts I really do.
        ,
        Structural in another thread you went on and on to a young girl who was aged just 15, you spoke to her like she was a medical university graduate, what we say here, is horses for courses, but you wouldnt understand that.


        I am so glad I live here in Australia as quite honestly I have never ever in my 55 years ever read or heard from such a man who under no circumstances will give anyone else a go. I would not like to think that all Americans are as arrogant as this.



        Actually answer this structural ,If someone did come to you, say a person with a thoracic curvature of 85 degrees like I had, and they said they had heard that vestibular testing can help their scoliosis, what would you in good conscience say what benefits could they expect??? and dont ramble, straight to the point.


        Macky
        Operation 1966, Fused from T4 to L3, had Harrington rods inserted. Originally had an 85 degree Thoracic curve with lumbar scoliosis as well but had a good correction.
        Perfectly normal life till 1997 but now in a lot of pain daily. Consider myself very fortunate though.

        Comment


        • #64
          Gerbo,
          Sorry for the length of this but I'm going to attempt to answer all questions in one post (Lorraine, you'll just have to bear with my "rambling"). Also, under the advice of Celia, I emailed Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard on the matter... I received an email back from Dr. Rivard which I'll post this afternoon when I return from work.

          First, I have not stated that vest test/rehab is "going to help" everyone... is it a structural or functional scoliosis? 1) I would tell them to seek the advice of an M.D. qualified to evaluate them and administer such a test. 2) I would tell them that it may be relevant as a causative factor or it may be a secondary effect of the scoliosis. Is there a diproportionate corelation between possible vestibular imbalance and the degree of curvature? ...testing would be helpful in determining this and help direct further treatment. 3) I would refer them again to a qualified specialist to help determine if they would like to pursue that avenue in combination with others.(does it make sense to them individually?)

          As for SI - Again this is never a black and white issue.... what type of scoliosis do they have and what are the realistic outcomes of treatment based on that fact. I would tell them that SI has been shown in clinical settings to reverse the curvature with stabilizing effect, slow or stop its progression, and failed altogether to have any significant impact on stopping progression (not unlike the result outcomes of bracing attempts). The effect of treatment would be noticable within a few visits/hours/sessions of work, if at that point there was no discernable effect treatment would be discontinued.

          I have yet to work with someone with scoliosis who did not receive some kind of positive benefit from the work, nor have I ever encouraged anyone to use my approach exclusively, without proper M.D. supervision.

          I know studies are your primary source for relevance, but the reality is that there are many more ways to confirm legitimacy of a given method.
          Dr. Irene Grant is an Internal Medicine and Infectious Disease Specialist in New York City. She is currently on the teaching faculty at Albert Einstein College of Medicine and Assistant Clinical Professor of Medicine at New York Medical College.
          She had a very bad whiplash injury when she was a child, which created problems in her neck, similar to scoliosis. An Osteopath referred her to Structural Integration. Irene says, "After ten sessions I noticed that my posture improved, my chronic neck pain was significantly relieved, and I had much more energy. Further treatments brought progressive freedom. I experienced major changes. The most amazing thing is that I am now pain free."
          Irene has been receiving Structural Integration sessions now weekly, for the past two and a half years. "I am very impressed with Structural Integration and have referred a lot of patients to Structural Integration, including Scoliosis patients. Structural Integration is a wonderful method that can rehabilitate and reverse injuries."
          The investment in SI is fairly small relative to many of the other approaches and nobody gets roped into months and months, years and years of treatment if there is no positive effect as confirmed by them and there periodic x-ray evaluations.

          Macky,
          Structural in another thread you went on and on to a young girl who was aged just 15, you spoke to her like she was a medical university graduate, what we say here, is horses for courses, but you wouldnt understand that.
          Can you please show that post so that I can understand how it was either a) not an attempt to offer helpful advice/input/clarity. or b) was rude or condescending in some nature, as you've previously claimed my posts as being.

          I am so glad I live here in Australia as quite honestly I have never ever in my 55 years ever read or heard from such a man who under no circumstances will give anyone else a go. I would not like to think that all Americans are as arrogant as this.
          First, why is this such a gender issue for you? And why are you always so inclined to dismiss or hold prejudice toward entire populations of people based on your opinion/experience with one? I believe I haven't prevented anyone from expressing their opinions... in fact I just clarified an inaccurate statement by someone and all heck broke loose on me. In fact, it has been you folks that won't "give anyone else a go"... you have consistently belittled other peoples posts on non-surgical topics... I'm just the only one here standing up for the minority.. isn't that what "democracy" is all about?

          The rest has been a defense on my part to ward off your attacks and denigration of something I felt had relevance here. If you or Celia would like to call something phoney baloney then simply give evidence to support that belief (i.e. - studies showing that it has no relevance or applicability) I haven't seen those presented yet... just the valid point that there are few studies relating it to scoliosis... and I don't feel that justifies calling it complete phoney baloney. Maybe I just feel your scrutiny is rather extreme.

          As per your question... refer to my response to Gerbo above as it was a similar question he asked. Do you have a structural or functional/ideopathic scoliosis? Age is a consideration. Again, no one method will help everyone all the time... or in and of itself. This is not a black and white issue. To be short, it will depend on you're individual case... in the end, I don't do vestibular testing so you would be redirected to a qualified M.D. if you chose to pursue it further. I support its possible contribution to scoliosis, I'm not claiming it is the only one or that it should be used by all or in exclusivity.

          Respectfully,
          Structural
          Last edited by structural75; 01-09-2007, 02:43 PM.

          Comment


          • #65
            Have a look at your reply to Scoliosis Gal on the thread Flat Back Syndrome, and you will see what I mean about her having to have a university degree in Medicine for her to understand it, she is only 15 years of age.

            I have no gender issue at all, absolutely none, never have, never will. I have two sons for goodness sake. Just people(is that better) who never seem to take in what other people are trying to say. We do hear you, but some of us dont agree.

            It has also been said on these forums time and time again how some means of alternate therapy dont work. Now this is by people who have experienced them. Actual people who have actually lived it, and a lot of them.

            This is just an example that goes to my thinking, MY THINKING. My son went to an osteopath who has been all over Australia and has his clinic here in
            Tasmania. On leaving he felt giddy , in pain, almost passed out and ended up in hospital. He went to the osteopath because of pain in his neck and back. The manipulation done had caused his hospitilisation and this was verified after Xrays were taken and compared to Xrays before he went to the Osteopath. OK you will say that was just one person but one person is one to many. Now he was my son I cant help but wonder how many people I DONT know that things have happened to. I do realise that there probably a lot of people who are helped and you are going to say that but as I said one person wrongly manipulated was enough for me.

            Peoples experiences with chiropractors you can see on this forum you can read all that yourself and see how people have spent so much money trying to get help for their scoliosis but all for nothing. I am not saying chiropractors cannot help with other problems.

            I have ideopathic scoliosis, which at the time I had the operation was in the very early days of surgery , was regarded as an excellent
            correction, which it was.

            I am so very thankful that I had such a good mother who supported me with all her love and a good doctor, I dont know what would have become of me without the operation. I know that absolutely no amount of alternate therapies would have helped me.

            Macky
            Last edited by macky; 01-09-2007, 04:30 PM.
            Operation 1966, Fused from T4 to L3, had Harrington rods inserted. Originally had an 85 degree Thoracic curve with lumbar scoliosis as well but had a good correction.
            Perfectly normal life till 1997 but now in a lot of pain daily. Consider myself very fortunate though.

            Comment


            • #66
              Hi Macky,

              I didn't hear Scoliosis_Gal complain... just you? I'm sorry for being accustomed to speaking in those terms.... what do you suggest I do?

              I see your point and I'm sorry about what happened to your son. I can certainly see how that would leave a bad impression.

              I definitely don't condone what that osteopath had done... But to discredit the rest of them, or majority, who have been a tremendous help to people, often times when M.D.s couldn't do anything for them, is maybe taking it too far. It's not fair to those who practice ethically and responsibly and contribute a great deal to their patients lives and well being. We all know that there are surgeons out there who have left instrumentation in peoples bodies, severely disfigured/disabled individuals and/or left people in more pain than they were originally in. Now I back all of the talented surgeons out there as well... So why don't you feel the same about surgeons? What happened to the "one person is one too many" mentality? It is absolutely no different than osteopaths, chiropractors, etc..... I'm not saying this to get under you're skin... seriously I'm not. I'm just making a point that it's not fair to be selective about what field you hold to more critical standards and what field can be forgiven. It just seems hypocritical to me, and not clearly representative to the rest of them. In every profession there are extraordinarily talented practitioners, and less talented... Results will vary accordingly... just as people look for the best, most experienced and knowledgable surgeons.

              It has also been said on these forums time and time again how some means of alternate therapy dont work. Now this is by people who have experienced them. Actual people who have actually lived it, and a lot of them.
              I see your point here as well, and I agree that no therapy is garaunteed to work for everyone, and some are more effective than others(I don't support EVERY alternative therapy, especially for its application to scoliosis. In fact, there are several that people regularly utilize and promote here that I wouldn't recommend for scoliosis).
              I can only speak accurately and with confidence that SI work has proven beneficial to many with scoliosis, whether they are posting their results on this forum or not. (Again, this forum only represents a fraction of the millions affected by scoliosis) Now I could be wrong on this because I haven't checked lately, but I don't believe anyone has claimed to have negative results from SI on this forum. In fact it doesn't seem as though many have even tried it... they tend to be drawn to the more 'commercially' driven 'therapies' such as pilates and yoga.
              Sometimes they don't work, I agree... yet unless people fully understand my chosen profession and what we are doing, I don't believe they have the ability to say it doesn't work. ...it definitely has for many... which is why the M.D. in the quote from my previous post refers patients to it. She doesn't need studies, her personal experience and that of her patients is plenty to show her that it works.

              Peoples experiences with chiropractors you can see on this forum you can read all that yourself and see how people have spent so much money trying to get help for their scoliosis but all for nothing. I am not saying chiropractors cannot help with other problems.
              Just to be clear with you Lorraine, I personally don't think 'most' people need to undergo chiropractics or any other treatment for indefinite periods of time like that... I think it's predatory and unnecessary unless someones condition/occupation causes such strain that they have to do something on a regular basis to maintain. I also don't think 'adjusting' bones without regard for the soft tissue is an effective approach for scoliosis, given that it is the tissue that moves and orients our skeletal system. Just my opinion... I'm sorry many have been convinced otherwise.

              To conclude, which is long overdue, I'll leave you all with Dr. Rivard's email reply to me. It doesn't say anything very conclusively... as we know. But this is the end of my contribution on this topic because it's gotten way too negative for my liking.
              (I have removed parts of my personal email for obvious reasons: public forum!)
              From :Charles Hilaire Rivard <chrivard@gmail.com>
              Sent : Tuesday, January 9, 2007 8:10 AM
              To : "Ryan Flowers" <@hotmail.com>
              Subject : Re: Spinecor Brace & Vestibular Affect

              | | | Inbox

              Hello M Flowers,

              Many studies, mostly by the Japenese people, are telling us that the scoliosis patient

              are showing some abnormality in their vestibular system, but no body up to now can tell us

              If it's a consequence or one of the aetiologic factor.of the scoliosis. Dr Lamiantia in New-

              York is doing vestibular testing on all his scoliosis patient and we are still waiting him to gave

              us some results of those exam that he is doing for two to three years now.

              In summary I hope that SpineCor Brace could change the vestibular system but

              I don't have any proof yet.

              Best regards

              Charles H, Rivard M.D.
              Last edited by structural75; 01-09-2007, 09:12 PM.

              Comment


              • #67
                Goodbye and god bless.

                Macky
                Operation 1966, Fused from T4 to L3, had Harrington rods inserted. Originally had an 85 degree Thoracic curve with lumbar scoliosis as well but had a good correction.
                Perfectly normal life till 1997 but now in a lot of pain daily. Consider myself very fortunate though.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Until now, it was my belief that the NSF was a place for parents or patients to discuss issues without having to justify or defend their statements to medical practitioners. On Christmas Eve, bits and pieces of a light frivolous conversation which took place between parents in September 2006 was used to prove a point - the purpose of which is still unclear to me. The debate that ensued has no doubt left many people hurt in the process. The one person I sincerely hope is not hurt is Dr. Rivard because I have the greatest admiration and love for him.
                  Last edited by Celia; 01-10-2007, 07:05 AM.

                  Canadian eh
                  Daughter, Deirdre born Oct 2000. Diagnosed with 60 degree curve at the age of 19 months. Serial casting by Dr. Hedden at Sick Kid's Hospital. Currently being treated by Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard in Montreal with the Spinecor brace and curve is holding at "2" degrees. Next appointment 2008

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Celia,

                    I'm deleting all previous posts on this matter, as it is clear that it got us nowhere. I don't see how Dr. Rivards feelings would be hurt??? I think having his opinion on the matter is probably what you're most concerned with so I'll leave his reply to me on here.

                    As for this forum, you're right, it is for parents and patients to discuss issues. It is also a place for people to start becoming informed about what is out there. That is why there are headings for Non-Surgical Treatments and options, as we both agree should be used in combination with conventional approaches. I would hope that people would be able to post info and advice on those topics in the future without undergoing the harsh scrutiny, denigration and criticism that so often takes place. If it is ok for people to use a dvd to help their scoliosis, then why is not alright to undergo guided treatment from trained professionals? I am personally more skeptical and concerned about folks using a dvd without knowing/understanding the specific requirements for their particular scoliosis. But that's just me....

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      I don't understand how erasing all your previous posts and leaving dr. Rivard's reply will clarify matters for people since the continuity of the discussion will be lost and the thread will make no sense whatsoever. As for your stance on vestibular testing, you have stated numerous times that you don't do this kind of testing on your own scoliosis patients so I find your arguments hypocritical and motives unclear.
                      Last edited by Celia; 01-11-2007, 12:21 PM.

                      Canadian eh
                      Daughter, Deirdre born Oct 2000. Diagnosed with 60 degree curve at the age of 19 months. Serial casting by Dr. Hedden at Sick Kid's Hospital. Currently being treated by Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard in Montreal with the Spinecor brace and curve is holding at "2" degrees. Next appointment 2008

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Celia,

                        For Pete's sake Celia! This is crazy... I'm trying to suggest we wipe the slate clean and free from the personal attacks that have "hurt" peoples feelings and stick to objective comments as Gerbo suggested initially. The thread would make perfect sense if you did the same, then all unnecessary remarks will be gone and the objective parts of our discussion will remain. We still probably disagree but that's perfectly OK with me... really. Why do you now have a problem with that... In fact I think that when you look at the posts in their continuous form it is clear that we were all guilty of making offensive remarks... why do you want all of that to remain if it's upsetting you and others? I can't seem to do anything right here... .

                        I dont' do vestibular testing (outside the scope and qualifications of my practice), but as an individual and professional I find it's use relevant to scoliosis. I have no motive other than to support something that I believe (as does Dr. Rivard) to be an important aspect to treatment in some cases. I'm just not of the belief that we stick people in braces and leave it at that. There is more to scoliosis than that and I feel people get better correction when we address several components to the problem at hand.... that's all. No hidden agenda here. I don't perform back surgery or fit braces, but that doesn't mean I can't support their use!

                        This was my concluding post on christmas eve... which was followed by several more of its kind to try put a close to our arguement.
                        Originally posted by structural75
                        Celia,

                        I'm finished with this cyclic debate. I honestly didn't know of your previous discussion (or at least I hadn't bothered to read it). The discussion you had with another member is still there (I presume) for others to read... the context is pretty straight-forward. ... I surrender!!!!!

                        I said:
                        I'm perfectly fine with you using that quote over and over again, just remember that there is a sentence preceeding the one you keep highlighting which clarifies my position more accurately. This is also the belief of the chiros of scoliosissystems in NY... use of the spinecor brace along with other methods, not "in and of itself". That is known as a comprehensive approach.

                        By the way, I know that a concern you had involved the financial appropriateness of the matter, and I completely understand and share the concern. Yet there are also organizations/people who are not doing this for financial reasons. Here is a non-profit group: http://www.vestibular.org/index.php

                        structural

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Well, too late... I began erasing them before getting those responses. I thought the same but I guess it's for the best to remove as much negativity as possible. Not only have I been personally slaughtered on this thread by folks who don't know me, but now others are jumping at any opportunity they can to discredit me elsewhere...

                          ....that's unfortunate, but it will not prevent me from contributing to future posts.

                          Take care

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Okay...I have a question and anyone can answer...but please no debate or argument involved in the reply. I have noticed in this discussion that Vestibular Testing and Vestibular Rehab have been talked about as two separate things. I wonder, what is the difference between the two (obviously the two must cross at some point) and is it possible to do the vest. rehab with no previous testing?
                            Thanks to whoever replies...I was a little confused.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Hi Curvy,

                              Vestibular testing is a diagnostic procedure to determine the state of functioning of the vestibular system (in the same way that an MRI gives a visual assesment/information but doesn't actually treat anything). The tests will determine many things such as neurologic activity being fed to the cerebellum via the inner ear, potential disturbances in those signals, inner ear and ocular(eye) coordination and synchronicity, etc....

                              Vestibular Rehabilitation is what might follow testing if they were to find an imbalance that was contributing to or being influenced by the problem at hand. Rehab uses the results of the testing to specifically address the unique imbalances within that individuals inner ear/nervous system/ocular synchronization.

                              I had included rehab in the discussion just because I thought it was important to make the ditinction that you just asked about. The testing that is done is not a treatment of any sort, just a specific type of diagnostic/assesment.

                              Hope that helps.

                              structural

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Okay, I understand better now. I looked it up online and see that the rehab is used for things like Vertigo, Vestibular neuritis (inflammation if the inner ear nerves), and other things. I wonder, do these conditions cause a physical deformity of the vestibular system, or just a physical displacement of sorts (dont know if that is what I am trying to say) that causes the body to become imbalanced? Does the rehab help to correct the deformity/displacement (idk what it is, sorry) or does it help to train the body to recognise the new location and accomodate better to its new surroundings as "normal"?
                                Sorry for all the questions...have been thinking about these but didnt want to get into the fuss. Am going to school to become a PA.

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