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  • #31
    Macky,

    Don't let structural intimidate you! Keep in mind he is here passionately arguing that we should all give "eye exercises" serious consideration in the treatment of idiopathic scoliosis and even raise it to the level of Schroth therapy and yes it costs big bucks! So....depending on the location of your curve you either move your eyes to the left or to the right spin around in your chair and try to focus on your thumb. Would wiggling the ears and rubbing one's tummy while saying three Hail Marys help
    Last edited by Celia; 12-30-2006, 10:12 AM.

    Canadian eh
    Daughter, Deirdre born Oct 2000. Diagnosed with 60 degree curve at the age of 19 months. Serial casting by Dr. Hedden at Sick Kid's Hospital. Currently being treated by Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard in Montreal with the Spinecor brace and curve is holding at "2" degrees. Next appointment 2008

    Comment


    • #32
      Actually Structural I said it hasnt been around long enough, but I may be wrong again.

      Celia you absolutely cracked me up. I am sitting here laughing with tears running down my face, you are an absolute delight. Golly what would we do without people like you on our forum.

      Structural get over yourself.

      Happy New Year to all my friends here, I love you all and thankyou Celia, boy did I need that.

      God bless,
      Macky xx
      Operation 1966, Fused from T4 to L3, had Harrington rods inserted. Originally had an 85 degree Thoracic curve with lumbar scoliosis as well but had a good correction.
      Perfectly normal life till 1997 but now in a lot of pain daily. Consider myself very fortunate though.

      Comment


      • #33
        surgery vs conservative(example: Schroth/bracing) results

        This abstract suggests conservative therapy can reduce not eliminate need for surgery:

        Pediatr Rehabil. 2003 Jul-Dec;6(3-4):209-14. Links
        Effect of conservative management on the prevalence of surgery in patients with adolescent idiopathic scoliosis.Rigo M, Reiter Ch, Weiss HR.
        Instituto Elena Salva, Barcelona, Spain. rigo.quera.rehab@eresmas.net

        STUDY DESIGN: Retrospective analysis of outcome in terms of prevalence of surgery for adolescent idiopathic scoliosis in patients receiving conservative management. OBJECTIVES: To determine whether a centre with an active policy of conservative management has fewer patients who eventually undergo surgery for adolescent idiopathic scoliosis than a centre where the practice is non-intervention. BACKGROUND DATA: The efficacy of orthoses for the treatment of idiopathic scoliosis was called into question in a recent publication. Because the prevalence of surgery in an untreated group of patients (28.1%) was not significantly different from that in a braced group (22.4%), the authors concluded that bracing appears to make no difference. Based on prior experience, this conclusion is questioned. METHODS: Since 1991, bracing and physical therapy have been recommended for children with adolescent idiopathic scoliosis at a centre in Barcelona, Spain. The scoliosis database was searched for patients with adolescent idiopathic scoliosis who were at least 15 years of age at last review and who had adequate documentation of the Cobb angle. The prevalence of surgery was compared with that of published data from a centre where the practice is non-intervention. RESULTS: From a total of 106 braced cases out of which 97 were followed up, six cases (5.6%) ultimately underwent spinal fusion. A worst case analysis, which assumes that all nine cases that were lost to follow-up had operations, brings the uppermost number of cases that could have undergone spinal fusion to 15 (14.1%). Either percentage is significant statistically when compared to the 28.1% reported surgeries from the centre with the policy of non-intervention. CONCLUSIONS: If conservative management does reduce the proportion of children with adolescent idiopathic scoliosis that require surgery, it can be said to provide a real and meaningful advantage to both the patients and the community. It is contended that conservative methods of treatment should never be ruled out from scoliosis management, because they can and do offer a viable alternative to those patients who cannot or will not opt for surgical
        treatment.

        From the Schroth Klinik:

        1: Stud Health Technol Inform. 2002;91:342-7. Links
        Conservative management in patients with scoliosis--does it reduce the incidence of surgery?Weiss HR, Weiss G, Schaar HJ.
        Asklepios Katharina-Schroth-Klinik, Korczakstr. 2, D-55566 Bad Sobernheim.

        The effectiveness of conservative scoliosis treatment, including bracing, is widely denied. Like any therapeutic intervention, conservative scoliosis treatment including patient education, techniques of brace moulding, and time-consuming follow-ups is reasonable only if the benefits outweigh the strain placed upon the patient by the treatment. The most important benefit of early intervention in scoliosis is prevention of the need for spinal fusion surgery. Retrospective analysis of the incidence of surgery for patients with scoliosis, by comparison with incidence in an untreated control group. Since 1992 the bracing technique according to Cheneau has been applied in parallel with the scoliosis inpatient intensive rehabilitation programme (SIR). For this study we chose from our data base the scoliosis patients who had conservative treatment at our center between 1993 and 1996. All patients, like those of the control group, were at least 15 years of age at the time they were evaluated for the last time. The incidence of surgery of our group was compared with that reported by a center in Ireland. Of 343 female scoliosis patients with a curve angle of 33.4 AE (SD=18.9), 41 (11.95%) had surgery. The incidence of surgery of our collective was significantly lower than the incidence of surgery of the control group which reported an incidence of 28,1%. The AIS matched group of patients (n = 179) had an incidence of surgery of slightly more than 7%. When compared with a matched control group of untreated patients, incidence of surgery was significantly reduced by SIR combined with bracing. So conservative management is indicated in patients with scoliosis.

        PMID: 15457752 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]1: Orthopade. 2003 Feb;32(2):146-56. Links
        [Conservative treatment of idiopathic scoliosis with physical therapy and orthoses][Article in German]
        Weiss HR.
        Asklepios Katharina-Schroth-Klinik,Bad Sobernheim.

        Opinions differ in the international literature about the efficacy of conservative approaches to scoliosis treatment.Because this divergence of opinion corresponds to a great discrepancy in the standards applied to conservative treatment methods, it is not astonishing that the results of conservative treatment as described in the literature also differ. Scoliosis normally does not have such dramatic effects that immediate surgery would be indicated.Moreover, it is clear from the published literature that it is the functional and physiological impairments of scoliosis patients--including pain, torso deformity, psychological disturbance, and pulmonary dysfunction--which require therapeutic intervention. In Germany the triad of outpatient physiotherapy, intensive inpatient rehabilitation, and bracing has proven effective in conservative scoliosis treatment.Indication, content, and results of the individual treatment procedures are described and discussed. The positive outcomes of this practice validate a policy of offering conservative scoliosis treatment as an alternative to patients, including those for whom surgery is indicated.

        This abstract summarizes a search of the literature regarding results of conservative approaches:

        1: Phys Ther. 2005 Dec;85(12):1329-39. Links
        Effect of bracing and other conservative interventions in the treatment of idiopathic scoliosis in adolescents: a systematic review of clinical trials.Lenssinck ML, Frijlink AC, Berger MY, Bierman-Zeinstra SM, Verkerk K, Verhagen AP.
        Department of General Practice, Erasmus Medical Centre Rotterdam, PO Box 1738, 3000 DR Rotterdam, The Netherlands.

        BACKGROUND AND PURPOSE: Many conservative treatments are available for adolescents with idiopathic scoliosis, but the evidence for their accepted use is still unclear. The purpose of this study was to evaluate the effectiveness of braces and other conservative treatments of idiopathic scoliosis in adolescents by systematically reviewing the literature. METHODS: The literature was searched in the PubMed, CINAHL, Cochrane, and PEDro databases. Studies were selected if the design was a randomized clinical trial or a controlled clinical trial, if all patients had an idiopathic scoliosis, if all patients were less than 18 years of age during the intervention, and if the type of intervention was a conservative one. Two reviewers independently assessed the methodological quality using the Delphi list and performed data extraction. Analysis was based on the levels of evidence. RESULTS: Thirteen studies met the final inclusion criteria, showing a wide range of interventions such as bracing, electrical surface stimulation, and exercises. DISCUSSION AND CONCLUSION: The authors conclude that the effectiveness of bracing and exercises is not yet established, but might be promising. They found no evidence of the effectiveness of electrical stimulation.


        Here's a long term follow-up comparing surgically treated with brace treated:

        1: Spine. 2006 Feb 1;31(3):350-4. Links
        Outcome at 10 years after treatment for adolescent idiopathic scoliosis.Andersen MO, Christensen SB, Thomsen K.
        Spine Section, Department of Orthopaedic Surgery, University Hospital of Odense, Odense, Denmark.

        STUDY DESIGN: A total of 215 consecutive patients treated either by bracing or operation received a questionnaire after 9.7 years. OBJECTIVE: The aim of the present study was to elucidate the long-term outcome in a group of brace (BT) or surgical treated (ST) patients suffering AIS. SUMMARY OF BACKGROUND DATA: In adolescent idiopathic scoliosis (AIS), the options are BT or ST and, together with the disease itself, they may both be physically and psychologically demanding. METHODS: The main topics of a questionnaire were demographics, back pain, activities of daily living, and SF-36. RESULTS: A total of 181 replied. The mean age at follow-up was 26.0 years. The level of back or leg pain was relatively low, and the BT patients had more pain than their ST peers. We saw a generally high level of ADL and found no significant difference between BT and ST patients in the present study for any of the SF-36 variables. Compared with age-matched controls, the SF-36 scores were lower in the AIS patients. Brace related questions revealed a significant impact of the disease and the treatment on the patients' lives. CONCLUSIONS: The patients had moderately reduced perceived health status and activities of daily living, and increased pain with the ST patients generally at a better level than the BT.

        There are lots of abstracts in the National Library of Medicine from all over the world to be explored. So far I have not found any conservative approach which totally eliminates the need for surgery.
        Original scoliosis surgery 1956 T-4 to L-2 ~100 degree thoracic (triple)curves at age 14. NO hardware-lost correction.
        Anterior/posterior revision T-4 to Sacrum in 2002, age 60, by Dr. Boachie-Adjei @Hospital for Special Surgery, NY = 50% correction

        Comment


        • #34
          Thankyou Karen so much for going to the trouble of posting that, it was brilliant to read.

          It is 2007 over here now and my wish for all on this forum is a healthy and happy one.

          Lorraine. xx (Macky)
          Operation 1966, Fused from T4 to L3, had Harrington rods inserted. Originally had an 85 degree Thoracic curve with lumbar scoliosis as well but had a good correction.
          Perfectly normal life till 1997 but now in a lot of pain daily. Consider myself very fortunate though.

          Comment


          • #35
            Happy New Year to you Lorraine and I'm glad my last post made you laugh!

            This whole thread is quite ridiculous isn't it ? Anyway....I'm still trying to figure out why I was singled out for expressing my views months and months ago and now having to defend myself! As far as anyone is concerned those comments would have remained buried in the Spinecor thread - who in their right mind reads the entire 1000 posts ??? So now we have a separate thread with my words ( a parent's views ) plastered for ALL to see. Do we not live in a democracy and have free speech?? Is there an ethics committee that governs what I say ??? I find this whole thing quite bizarre.

            Karen,

            Thanks for the studies on bracing! I wonder why the Cheneau isn't offered here in North America ?
            Last edited by Celia; 01-03-2007, 10:55 AM.

            Canadian eh
            Daughter, Deirdre born Oct 2000. Diagnosed with 60 degree curve at the age of 19 months. Serial casting by Dr. Hedden at Sick Kid's Hospital. Currently being treated by Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard in Montreal with the Spinecor brace and curve is holding at "2" degrees. Next appointment 2008

            Comment


            • #36
              Celia I totally agree with you, I actually really and truly thought the same thing.

              I am so sorry you had problems a few months ago. I did not read the post you are speaking of as I would not read 1000 posts(haha), but sweety what I have been so glad about is how absolutely wonderful it is that your precious little girl is doing so well. That is the type of thing I absolutely love reading, it makes me so very ,very happy and puts a smile on my face.

              We should start a happy, good news, positive thread instead of defending our thoughts all the time on this one.

              Yeah for free speech, Yeah for Women and thank the Lord for miracles.

              God bless
              Lorraine. xx
              Operation 1966, Fused from T4 to L3, had Harrington rods inserted. Originally had an 85 degree Thoracic curve with lumbar scoliosis as well but had a good correction.
              Perfectly normal life till 1997 but now in a lot of pain daily. Consider myself very fortunate though.

              Comment


              • #37
                Celia/Macky,




                Originally posted by Celia Vogel
                Great to hear that you were reimbursed for the costs of the test! I don't have much time right now but we did discuss vestibular testing back on page 59 and 60 of this thread. As for right now... I have visions of sugar plums and fairies dancing in my head
                Clearly it was YOU Celia that read through "1000 posts" to find and reference that discussion. That's where I got the page numbers from... .

                Originally posted by Celia Vogel
                I'm still trying to figure out why I was singled out for expressing my views months and months ago and now having to defend myself against this Charlatan!
                YOU made the following statement, that is why I held YOU accountable for it.
                Originally posted by Celia Vogel
                As for vestibular testing....I think it's strictly a chiropractic thing and it's not done in the Montreal office.
                I simply clarified matters by saying that it was not "strictly a chiro thing", but actually a legitimate M.D. practice. Things persisted because you refused to acknowledge that correction and your biased misrepresentation of it. Plain and simple.


                We should start a happy, good news, positive thread instead of defending our thoughts all the time on this one.
                That's exactly what myself and others have been doing since your onslaught of unintelligible jabber on... "it's a chiro thing" and 'there's no medical validity to this'... All I've been doing this entire time is defending myself against you two and your denigrating attempts at 'free speech'... ! Think twice before opening your mouth Celia... you've 'edited' every post but one on this thread. Did you say something wrong the first time? Or were you just 'fine tuning' your attacks?

                Free speech..., I absolutely agree with you both! But the following is clearly not about free speech, but purely meant to belittle others and their efforts. All of you involved should be ashamed for such discouraging efforts.
                Originally posted by macky
                Linda, I agree with you 100% and all this guff is a real "talk about a lot of rot"
                as far as I am concerned.
                I know people are looking for a non surgical fix for scoliosis but peoples it just aint gonna happen.
                Loved the way you answered that Linda, with your usual finesse.

                Happy christmas to one and all.

                Macky xxxx
                This forum was meant for both surgical and non-surgical inquiries and support. Keep your bitterness and insecurities to yourselves, or at least within the confines of your "happy, good news, positive thread". When will either of you get it through your heads that people are utilizing these various methods in combination with the more 'favorably conventional' ones. I don't recall any stark claims recently of people saying this will "fix" the curve by 'itself', or that any of this is meant to be used exclusively. However, based on the "brilliant" studies that you presented here, there is evidence that complimentary, conservative approaches do in fact REDUCE the need for surgery. That's what I, and others, have been supporting all along.

                structural

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by structural75
                  ... there is evidence that complimentary, conservative approaches do in fact REDUCE the need for surgery. That's what I, and others, have been supporting all along.
                  I fail to see where you have shown that expensive eye exercises either alone or in combination with other methods can actually reduce the need for surgery. I don't think you have any right to come here and harass people with your hostile comments! What I said months and months ago was an exchange between parents and quite frankly it was non of your business!

                  I didn't have to read all 1000 posts because I've been posting all along and I remember the discussion occurred sometime in September. My question to you is how did you know about the discussion on page 23 ????? I don't care what you call yourself ( M.D. I highly doubt! ) but in my books you're one GRADE A NUT!!!!
                  Last edited by Celia; 01-03-2007, 10:34 AM.

                  Canadian eh
                  Daughter, Deirdre born Oct 2000. Diagnosed with 60 degree curve at the age of 19 months. Serial casting by Dr. Hedden at Sick Kid's Hospital. Currently being treated by Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard in Montreal with the Spinecor brace and curve is holding at "2" degrees. Next appointment 2008

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Once again Celia you crack me up, in a nice way.

                    If 75 means Structural you were born in 1975 you would be the age of my youngest son and believe me he would not have the audacity to speak to me or anyone else they way you do. You infuriate me because you will not listen and give the people PARENTS and patients who have been through all this the benefit of the doubt that they may know what they are talking about.

                    To make myself a little clearer I thoroughly believe in bracing to help scoliosis, I must do because I was in one for 6 months.

                    This is the end of this thread for me. Your attitude toward women Structural leaves a lot to be desired and how did I work that out? When you told me to keep my place. That told me all I need to know. Exactly where is a womans place??mmmm I wonder,

                    One more thing. Celia would undoubedly know a lot more than yourself as she has a dear little girl that she loves and is doing everything she can to help her. She is a delightful person who has been posting on this forum for a long time and her posts are humorous and interesting and worth reading.

                    She got it in one, GRADE A NUT, yep little little chickie agrees.

                    Macky
                    Last edited by macky; 01-02-2007, 01:44 AM.
                    Operation 1966, Fused from T4 to L3, had Harrington rods inserted. Originally had an 85 degree Thoracic curve with lumbar scoliosis as well but had a good correction.
                    Perfectly normal life till 1997 but now in a lot of pain daily. Consider myself very fortunate though.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Now it all makes sense., silly silly me.

                      I just read your occupation "licensed and certified structural integration pracitioner/visceral manipulation" well there you go, explains everything.

                      Nothing like a bit of free advertising.

                      Macky!!!!!
                      Operation 1966, Fused from T4 to L3, had Harrington rods inserted. Originally had an 85 degree Thoracic curve with lumbar scoliosis as well but had a good correction.
                      Perfectly normal life till 1997 but now in a lot of pain daily. Consider myself very fortunate though.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Celia Vogel
                        Macky,

                        Don't let structural intimidate you! Keep in mind he is here passionately arguing that we should all give "eye exercises" serious consideration in the treatment of idiopathic scoliosis and even raise it to the level of Schroth therapy and yes it costs big bucks! So....depending on the location of your curve you either move your eyes to the left or to the right spin around in your chair and try to focus on your thumb. Would wiggling the ears and rubbing one's tummy while saying three Hail Marys help
                        Just catching up! Your post made me laugh out loud! Tee hee hee!
                        God has used scoliosis to strengthen and mold us. He's good all the time!On this forum these larger curves have not held forever in Spinecor,with an initial positive response followed by deterioration. With deterioration, change treatment.The first year she gained 4 or 5 inches and was stable at around 20/20 in brace, followed by rapid progression the next year.She is now 51/40 (Jan2008)out of brace (40/30 in Spinecor) and started at 38/27 out of brace(Jan2006.) Now in Cheneau.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I'll say it again. There is nothing wrong with medical research to determine the causes and treatments of scoliosis, but fantastic profit from this research makes this type of testing a financial quest rather than an effort to help patients. You don't have to be a genuis to see that.

                          Structual, I am tired of your rude posts to people dealing with scoliosis. I invite you to go somewhere else and post.
                          God has used scoliosis to strengthen and mold us. He's good all the time!On this forum these larger curves have not held forever in Spinecor,with an initial positive response followed by deterioration. With deterioration, change treatment.The first year she gained 4 or 5 inches and was stable at around 20/20 in brace, followed by rapid progression the next year.She is now 51/40 (Jan2008)out of brace (40/30 in Spinecor) and started at 38/27 out of brace(Jan2006.) Now in Cheneau.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by structural75
                            ...I simply clarified matters by saying that it was not "strictly a chiro thing", but actually a legitimate M.D. practice. Things persisted because you refused to acknowledge that correction and your biased misrepresentation of it. Plain and simple...
                            Structural,

                            Let me clarify things a little further for you this is not a Dr. Rivard M.D./ Dr. Coillard M.D. who are also the INVENTORS of the brace practice/thing! Name *one* orthopaedic surgeon who treats idiopathic scoliosis with eye exercises as an adjunct to other therapies?

                            You also didn't answer my question about your knowledge regarding the discussion on vestibular testing on page 23.
                            Last edited by Celia; 01-02-2007, 09:55 PM.

                            Canadian eh
                            Daughter, Deirdre born Oct 2000. Diagnosed with 60 degree curve at the age of 19 months. Serial casting by Dr. Hedden at Sick Kid's Hospital. Currently being treated by Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard in Montreal with the Spinecor brace and curve is holding at "2" degrees. Next appointment 2008

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Celia,
                              Originally posted by Celia Vogel
                              You also didn't answer my question about your knowledge regarding the discussion on vestibular testing on page 23.
                              When you're logged on to the forum it's page 23, when you're logged off it's pages 59 & 60 that YOU referenced. They are the SAME pages. Does that answer your question directly enough?

                              If you're so intent on knowing about other surgeons and what they do, pease do the research yourself. As there are thousands of them out there.

                              Are you arguing with me just for the sake of being "right". Because I think it's safe to say that there are very few right and wrong answers to the problems faced with scoliosis.

                              Maybe a different perspective would help. There are "theories" on mechanotransduction influencing scoliosis and the uneven growth of endplates, etc., etc.... . Mechanotransduction occurs as the connective tissues exert imbalanced tension on the skeletal body, thereby affecting growth patterns. Stretching, bracing and torsorotations are a few simplistic approaches to assist the correction of this imbalanced mechanotransduction (as does my field of professional studies, but with greater specificity). Why does it seem so off-the-wall to address the neurologic side to this more specifically? By addressing inner ear imbalances (which are either reflecting or influencing irregular muscular/ligamentous tonus), one would be further assisting the process of limiting the uneven mechanotransduction that's influencing growth.

                              It seems quite logical... after all, the muscular system is being partially controlled autonomically by information being supplied via the nervous system, which is being informed, in part, by the vestibular system & cerebellum (balance and coordination).

                              Are we really in such a drastic state of disagreement, or just having difficulty accepting mistakes/inaccuracies in comments?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Cheryl,

                                I beg your pardon? My initial posts on this forum are anything but rude. They become rude when I get attacked by 'others'.... . I don't like the rude nature of these posts anymore than you do, but let's consider how it began and how it continues to persist with those two individuals making sarcastic and denigrating comments long after I willing "surrendered" to their attacks. I think you're showing a bit of selective favoritism here.

                                I'm sorry you condemn an entire field of medicine because of a few bad apples out there... but those few 'financially motivated' practitioners do not represent them all, nor does it illigitimize the efforts put forth.

                                structural

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