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  • #46
    Gerbo, Linda Racine and others,

    Here is some very interesting, scientifically based info/studies directly relating to scoliosis and structural integration. I did in fact tell you early on that I would get this to you when I had time to dig it up... so here it is. Debate aside, I think you'll all find this of important interest. This has nothing to do with "selling" structural integration. My hopes are that it gets us all thinking a little more open mindedly about scoliosis in general and its potential treatment options (surgical, alternative and complimentary alike).

    This first link is a must read if nothing else.
    http://www.somatics.de/ScoliosisPropriocept.html
    http://www.somatics.de/Scoliosis.html
    http://www.somatics.de/Masi/main.html
    http://www.somatics.de/Hunt-Massey/intro.htm

    (Robert Schleip, author of the first link, is a Structural Integration Pract.... Just to clarify.)
    Best
    structural
    Last edited by structural75; 11-27-2006, 11:04 PM.

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    • #47
      mmmh, had a look at them, did come across that first article before which is an interesting overview of some on the literature on scoliosis aetiology, and worth reading even just for that reason

      Mr Schleip then continues to speculate (and really it is nothing more than speculation) why this means that rolfing could be an effective therapy.

      This is quite a valid approach, and makes for an interesting article to read.

      And that's it, an interesting article to read, but no evidence anywhere that rolfing does anything to permanently reduce the curvature in scoliosis. No double blind study (that would be a bit hard i suppose), no comparitive study between treatment and non treatment groups, not even a series of case studies with evidence of before and after treatment curves. Nothing, nada, de rien, njet

      Unfortunately that places rolfing in exactly the same position as chiropracters, rainbowtherapists, homeopaths, reflexologists etc, etc

      I think it is unfortunate that the so-called alternative treatments want to be part of the treatment package on offer but do not want to get involved with the scientific scrutiny the medical profession has to apply to all it offers to their patients (and I do know and have experienced that some medical practitioners take that principle a bit too far and have become very narrowminded as a result, no argument about that)

      Is that because they do not have the resources to do a proper study? Is it because it might show that the treatment doesn't work (or even worse; makes things worse??)

      Rolfing might be different and be very beneficial, but without reasonable evidence there is nothing in it to make it a more "worthwhile to try" treatment than any other complimentary treatment out there

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      • #48
        But I often read in this forum about advice that Doctors give to "wait and see" for 6 months to a year (or longer). I think that in those relatively frequent cases it would be perfectly feasible to "try" something different (in addition to wearing a brace for instance. As braces do not act dynamically with the body, they are static, forceful devices. It would be an excellent idea to have a trained professional doing very specific, interactive and responsive work with......
        despite the previous posting, completely agree with you there, despite statements from doctors we worked with that it was not going to make any difference..........

        If you've tried many of the scientifically proven non-surgical approaches and achieved little or no success
        thats a misunderstanding, we think that currently we are reasonable succesful, following initial deterioration (whilst receiving chiropracter treatment) the combination of spinecor brace and torsorotation "seems" reasonable succesful in at least holding if not improving her curve

        but when everything is failing to provide results maybe we should take a step outside the narrow confines of that box and take an educated chance.
        I did step out of the box and I did take an educated chance with the above, our consultant did not agree with our choices.....

        My hopes are that it gets us all thinking a little more open mindedly about scoliosis in general and its potential treatment options (surgical, alternative and complimentary alike
        i am very openminded, but will remain "vigilant and critical" at the same time, I also remain interested in what "the alternatives" have to say and offer as clearly there is lots of enthousiasm, passion, genuine concern, knowledge on offer, and surely amongst it all there might just about be a breakthrough treatment of the future. And if it includes (aspects of) rolfing; Great!!

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        • #49
          Gerbo,

          For a moment I thought we were getting along... and then you come back with those negative, vindictive and belittling remarks. If it doesn't suffice for you personally, so be it... at least I tried to do my part for the sake of a fair discussion.

          Mr Schleip then continues to speculate (and really it is nothing more than speculation) why this means that rolfing could be an effective therapy.
          His "speculations" are well rooted in 30+ years working directly with the human structure. Mr Shleip would not be lecturing on the treatment of ideopathic scoliosis and exploring its potential causative factors unless he had evidence of its success in his own practice.

          And that's it, an interesting article to read, but no evidence anywhere that rolfing does anything to permanently reduce the curvature in scoliosis.
          If you insist on this game of "proof", then show me the proof that suggests stretching your daughters "ligaments" and doing torsorotations is going to "permanently reduce the curvature in scoliosis" I didn't think so... Gerbo, I find some of your comments quite petty. On the one hand you criticize one thing (me/S.I.) for not being able to "permanently reduce" scoliotic curvatures, and on the other hand you personaly utilize methods that are NOT proven to "permanently reduce the curvature in scoliosis". Please clarify your logic.??? Are you saying it's OK for you, a lay person, to "stretch" your daughter's spine and do torsorotations (all the while claiming it's working!), but it's not OK for skilled and knowledgable professionals to do the exact same thing with greater precision, understanding and experience? If nothing else, please answer that question? If you're daughter is benefiting from your personal efforts, I bet she'd do even better under the care of a professional doing the same type of thing with a greater understanding. Wouldn't you agree?

          By the way, I NEVER claimed that structural integration would "permanently reduce the curvature in scoliosis"!!! Please don't put words in my mouth to try and justify your point. I said it has shown to be effective at reducing the curves... no "permanent" claims, etc.. If you insist on discrediting clinical experience that's fine, really. But don't manipulate my words for the sake of 'winning' an arguement about "studies" or "proof"!

          I think it is unfortunate that the so-called alternative treatments want to be part of the treatment package on offer but do not want to get involved with the scientific scrutiny the medical profession has to apply to all it offers to their patients (and I do know and have experienced that some medical practitioners take that principle a bit too far and have become very narrowminded as a result, no argument about that)

          Is that because they do not have the resources to do a proper study? Is it because it might show that the treatment doesn't work (or even worse; makes things worse??
          Gerbo, I believe the info I submitted shows very clearly that they ARE trying to get involved. Mr. Shleip is a researcher, has a PhD in Human Biology, a Masters in Psychology... as well as a Rolfer. In fact he has 'questioned' the physiologic mechanisms behind Rolfing since he began his career, often "challenging" beliefs that were otherwise accepted by other Rolfers. I cant think of many others with as "critical", "vigilant" or an open mind as him. He has done much for many fields of manual therapy.

          In fact, here's a link to the International Fascia Research Congress, founded by Robert Schleip in part with other leading medical professionals, Doctors and Scientists. They're having their first annual conference next year at Harvard Medical School... Not too shabby for a bunch of "alternative" folks(they're actually quite prominate 'conventional' folks with truley open minds), wouldn't you say. And you know, maybe the research done by this diverse group of professionals will shed some light on scoliosis in particular (I have no doubts that it will at some point). For the time being, you're welcome to stick with your mechanical devices.

          http://www.fascia2007.com/

          Studies cost money. Would you donate to put on such a study?

          Doesn't work? Of course there would be unsuccessful attempt, as their are in many surgical and bracing procedures/studies. Are you trying to say other proven methods are fail proof? I can account for individuals who have been the unfortunate victims of failed surgical procedures... don't even get me started on that one...

          Rolfing might be different and be very beneficial, but without reasonable evidence there is nothing in it to make it a more "worthwhile to try" treatment than any other complimentary treatment out there
          How you define "reasonable evidence" is obviously different than my criteria for such. Clinical experience of my own is beyond "reasonable evidence"... We simply disagree on that, but that's life.

          When did I say it was "more" worthwhile to try? I never made ascertains that it was "more" than anything else. I said it was a worthwhile approach to try, which it is. Meaning that it is firmly rooted in anatomical science, physiologic properties and performed in a tangible mean (direct use of hands-on manipulation of the very substance that you are stretching in your daughter).

          Unfortunately that places rolfing in exactly the same position as chiropracters, rainbowtherapists, homeopaths, reflexologists etc, etc
          To categorize this in the same realm as raindrop therapy is absurd. This original post pointed to claims that oils will somehow 'magically' move bones. Does that esoteric claim sound the same as 'manipulating' the fascial tissues (ligaments/tendons/myofascia/ visceral fascia) with ones hands... i.e. - "stretching"/altering the tissue along the spine manually???

          we think that currently we are reasonable succesful, following initial deterioration (whilst receiving chiropracter treatment) the combination of spinecor brace and torsorotation "seems" reasonable succesful in at least holding if not improving her curve
          You claim to be well versed in anatomy and physiology... so what in the world would make you think that 'popping' bones "back in place" would do anything to reduce or correct her curves, without addressing the soft tissue that is responsible for positioning them? It's no wonder why it didn't work for you. You now see the importance the tissue plays in this matter via your current methods. Sometimes it just comes down to common sense.

          Gerbo, in the end I don't understand what makes you believe that s.i./rolfing is so far fetched. It does the same thing that your braces, stretching and torsorotations are doing, but with the added advantage of an intelligent and responsive human hand and mind as the "device" of choice. Restricting the bodies growth with a brace culd actually cause harm if we aren't aware of the cause of the scoliosis. If the body develops a curvature in an effort to protect a damaged disk, for instance, and we then try to forcefully straighten the spine... it could end up causing serious consequences. So maybe you can see the value in looking at this condition from more than one angle, with or without a study involved.

          "The significant problems we have cannot be solved at the sam level of thinking with which we created them." - Albert Einstein

          structural
          Last edited by structural75; 11-28-2006, 10:10 PM.

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          • #50
            Gerbo,

            For what it's worth... Given that you appear to be taking a very proactive stance in your daughters treatment (which I highly commend. Laziness just isn't an option with this condition), I would humbly suggest seeking some 'self help' work that you can also do with her to reach her nervous system. It is important for anyone with any type of scoliosis to address the neurologically disruptive patterns that develop as a result of the curvature. Re-training her movement patterns by getting her actively involved 'might' go a long way in providing further stability that your other methods have achieved.

            structural

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            • #51
              I'll keep it short this time

              1) "Getting along" is not the same as blindly accepting eachothers arguments, and for that matter it is with my best friends i have been able to to have the fiercest discussions. , you tend to confuse critisism of ideas with personal critisism. I tried to be as factual as possible and with regards to yourself was quite happy to state;

              i am very openminded, but will remain "vigilant and critical" at the same time, I also remain interested in what "the alternatives" have to say and offer as clearly there is lots of enthousiasm, passion, genuine concern, knowledge on offer, and surely amongst it all there might just about be a breakthrough treatment of the future. And if it includes (aspects of) rolfing; Great!!
              2) I am quite happy to end this discussion now you have clarified that

              I NEVER claimed that structural integration would "permanently reduce the curvature in scoliosis
              .

              I am happy to concede that it is not inplausible at all that SI can improve posture and increase physical wellbeing, and that that in its own right is a goal worth aiming at (specially once you've stopped growing)

              Reference re torsorotation; http://corespinalfitness.com/downloa...nscoliosis.pdf

              regards

              gerbo
              Last edited by gerbo; 11-30-2006, 03:19 AM.

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              • #52
                Gerbo,

                I'll second that motion to end this debate. Now that we've cleared the air of misunderstandings... .

                Through all of this discussion it's become apparent to me that we actually agree more than we disagree. We're both critical thinkers, healthy skeptics and ultimately interested in the well being of those we love.

                I can understand the intense skepticism from those who have been taken advantage of by certain practitioners. Your line of questioning was completely warranted. These matters are more than scientific, they're emotional as well... you're here to find ways to best help your daughter.

                I hope you realize that I'm not here with deceptive intentions, not a fraud and I have very a healthy perspective on my limitations (professionally). I'm sorry many of you were taken advantage of by health care professionals, but that's not me.

                Since you now know what I do, hope we can continue a healthy dialogue in future posts to come with more inquiry and less fire.

                My best to you and your family.
                Structural

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                • #53
                  amen!

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                  • #54
                    No, I have never heard of Rain Drop Therapy. It sounds very interesting.

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