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Thread: Cranial Sacral Massage?

  1. #1
    scoli_mom Guest

    Cranial Sacral Massage?

    My 11 year old daughter was just recently diagnosed with a double major curve, not yet in a brace. Her curve is at 26 degrees and we are on a four month observation. I was wondering if anyone has used cranial sacral massage with good results? Thank you!

  2. #2
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    Cranial Massage

    I have just started with an Osteopath and she gave me such a massage. I'm 33 and have had Scoliosis since I was 13. She said the bones in the skull have been pulled because of the twistng below. The aim is to release them back to where they would be. Have you had the massage?
    After leaving the massage I have felt a great sense of release in the L2 region where she worked on. I have more movement on the tight side of my trunk now. Really not sure how long term all this will be, but will make the most of it.

  3. #3
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    Hi Folks,

    Cranial-Sacral work is a specialized branch of Osteopathic Manipulation, not related to massage whatsoever. Although many massage therapists undergo training in a very simplified version of Cranial Osteopathy commonly known as cranial-sacral therapy.

    It's influence/affect can be either primary or secondary to the scoliosis, but either way the effect of scoliosis on the dural membrane and cranial bones is indisputable none-the-less. It can often be very helpful for those with scoliosis in one way or another. I believe it to be a very relevant aspect to this condition. (consider the frequent combination of chiari and scoliosis as an example)

    Best of Luck,
    Structural

  4. #4
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    re:cranial sacral massage

    Yellow
    Hi! I had cranial sacral massage about four times when I first went to the chiropractor. I never knew exactly what the purpose was only that I actually felt my skull rotating and I felt like I was a clock being set. I knew when he was finished because my skull stopped moving. yellowbelly

  5. #5
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    If you expect a stabilising action or actual improvement you need to be aware that there is absolutely no evidence that is has any effect on scoliosis whatsoever, although practitioners selling this type of treatment would make you want to believe otherwise. You could waste lots of time and effort for no real benefit. Reversely, if you want to do "something" whilst you are waiting (which inevitably will make you very anxious) there won't be any harm in "trying", but don't have your hopes too high.

  6. #6
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    http://www.upledger.com/newsletters/nothing.htm
    Possibilities exist... despite the lack of studies.

    And no, these people are not all out to take your money....http://www.upledger.com/UF/pressRelease.php9.htm
    Last edited by structural75; 03-21-2007 at 11:18 AM.

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  8. #8
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    OOOHhhhh boy. here we go again... Should I post info on all of the botched surgeries and MD malpractice suits.....? They're all over the place! Quaqwatch ........ consider your source linda.

    Any chance you get, huh folks?

  9. #9
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    This apparantly comes from a book written by mr Upledger; do you think this is incorrectly reported, because if this is true this man would have to be seriously weird?

    Chapter 2 of his book, CranoSacral Therapy: Touchstone of Natural Healing, he describes, how he discovered and communicates with what he calls the patient's "Inner Physician":

    By connecting deeply with a patient while doing CranioSacral Therapy, it was possible in most cases to solicit contact with the patient's Inner Physician. It also became clear that the Inner Physician could take any for m the patient could imagine -- an image, a voice or a feeling. Usually once the image of the Inner Physician appeared, it was ready to dialog with me and answer questions about the underlying causes of the patient's health problems and what can be done to resolve them. It also became clear that when the conversation with the Inner Physician was authentic, the craniosacral system went into a holding pattern [6].

    The chapter goes on to describe Upledger's care of a four-month-old French baby who was "as floppy as a rag doll." Although the baby had never been exposed to English, Upledger decided to see whether the baby's "Inner Physician" would communicate with him via the craniosacral system:

    I requested aloud in English that the craniosacral rhythm stop if the answer to a question was "yes" and not stop if the answer was "no." The rhythm stopped for about ten seconds. I took this as an indication that I was being understood. I then asked if it was possible during this session for the rhythm to stop only in response to my question and not for other reasons, such as body position, etc., The rhythm stopped again. I was feeling more confident. I proceeded [6].

    Using "yes-no answers," Upledger says, he pinpointed the problem as "a toxin that was inhaled by the mother . . . over a period of about two-and-a-half hours while cleaning the grease off an antique automobile engine" during the fourth month of pregnancy. After "asking many particulars" about what he should do, Upledger was told to "pump the parietal bones that form a large part of the roof of the skull, and to pass a lot of my energy through the brain from the back of the skull to the front." As he did this, Upledger frequently checked with the baby's "Inner Physician." After about an hour, Upledger says, the baby began to move normally [6].

  10. #10
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    Gerbo,
    You're quite selective in choosing the most obscure examples within the profession.

    Dr. Kenneth Salyer, a prominent craniofacial surgeon, referred Akmed and Mohammed Ibrahim to John Upledger and his associates for cranial evaluation and treatment prior to surgery to separate the conjoined twins at their skulls. (this was a famous case, do you remember it?) They underwent his care for more than a year before the surgeons agreed to do the surgery, deeming they were now stable enough to have the best chance for success. The surgery went better than expected and the boys are doing fantastically well. So why would a prominent craniofacial surgeon refer the boys himself to this supposed "quack"?

    Dr. Upledger's interest was whetted early in his career. While assisting a neurosurgeon in the removal of plaque from a patient's spinal cord membrane, he observed that the membrane kept pulsating, in spite of his best efforts to keep it still. This was his first observation of the craniosacral rhythm. After many years of research on the system, he established the Upledger Institute in 1985 in Palm Beach Gardens, Fla. to more effectively transfer his research findings to consumers. Since then, more than 38,000 practitioners have been trained in craniosacral therapy, including osteopaths, medical doctors, chiropractors, psychologists, dentists, physical therapists, acupuncturists and massage therapists.
    Mainstream medicine has criticized craniosacral therapy, sometimes vociferously, primarily because the underlying theory challenges many classical anatomical assumptions. For example, Dr. Stephen Barrett (a.k.a. - Mr. Quackwatch himself), an outspoken critic of alternative treatments, states "the theory behind craniosacral therapy is erroneous because the bones of the skull fuse during infancy and cerebrospinal fluid does not have a palpable rhythm."1 However, this dogma is not universally accepted. For example, in parts of Europe, it is taught that the skull bones do, indeed, have movement potential. Dr. Upledger feels that the axiom about fused skull bones may have arisen from the routine practice of using highly preserved cadavers for anatomical examinations. He postulates that fresh, unpreserved sutures (the skull bone edges) are full of dynamic tissue, nerves and blood vessels, consistent with a flexible system allowing some movement. In contrast, the sutures from old preserved skulls appear calcified. Dr. Upledger also believes that most neurosurgeons have not observed the craniosacral rhythm because most surgery penetrates the membrane barrier required to maintain the rhythm.
    Just because this Stephen Barrett doesn't have adequate skill levels to perceive this himself doesn't mean he's right.
    One individual, who has received therapy in the Upledger program, is "Jackie." He became an incomplete quadriplegic after a 1990 car accident. Jackie has been treated several times at the facility and emphatically states that, "they have helped me more than anyone ever has before, I now have much more feeling and muscle control." Jackie now walks without the full leg brace previously needed. He is a man who likes to "work hard and play hard," and his improved trunk muscles, critical for balance, allow him to use a three-wheel motorcycle once again. He remembers very distinctly the moment on the therapy table that he first regained some feeling in his left hip: "The tingle felt like the sensation when you try to move a leg that has gone to sleep."

  11. #11
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    no, no, it was you who choose mr Upledger
    the most obscure example
    which i thought implicated that you saw him as a shining example and beacon of good practice.

    So, do you think that quote from that book by mr Upledger was correct?? I am sure that you agree that whilst writing that (if he did) he'd lost it a bit....????

    do you provide this therapy yourself?
    Last edited by gerbo; 03-22-2007 at 11:52 AM.

  12. #12
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    Oh man.... I'm laughing so hard, I can't contain myself!!!! I really think this would be a good Monty Python skit, don't you????


    Chapter 2 of his book, CranoSacral Therapy: Touchstone of Natural Healing, he describes, how he discovered and communicates with what he calls the patient's "Inner Physician":

    By connecting deeply with a patient while doing CranioSacral Therapy, it was possible in most cases to solicit contact with the patient's Inner Physician. It also became clear that the Inner Physician could take any for m the patient could imagine -- an image, a voice or a feeling. Usually once the image of the Inner Physician appeared, it was ready to dialog with me and answer questions about the underlying causes of the patient's health problems and what can be done to resolve them. It also became clear that when the conversation with the Inner Physician was authentic, the craniosacral system went into a holding pattern [6].

    The chapter goes on to describe Upledger's care of a four-month-old French baby who was "as floppy as a rag doll." Although the baby had never been exposed to English, Upledger decided to see whether the baby's "Inner Physician" would communicate with him via the craniosacral system:

    I requested aloud in English that the craniosacral rhythm stop if the answer to a question was "yes" and not stop if the answer was "no." The rhythm stopped for about ten seconds. I took this as an indication that I was being understood. I then asked if it was possible during this session for the rhythm to stop only in response to my question and not for other reasons, such as body position, etc., The rhythm stopped again. I was feeling more confident. I proceeded [6].

    Using "yes-no answers," Upledger says, he pinpointed the problem as "a toxin that was inhaled by the mother . . . over a period of about two-and-a-half hours while cleaning the grease off an antique automobile engine" during the fourth month of pregnancy. After "asking many particulars" about what he should do, Upledger was told to "pump the parietal bones that form a large part of the roof of the skull, and to pass a lot of my energy through the brain from the back of the skull to the front." As he did this, Upledger frequently checked with the baby's "Inner Physician." After about an hour, Upledger says, the baby began to move normally
    [6].


    *****

    Canadian eh
    Daughter, Deirdre born Oct 2000. Diagnosed with 60 degree curve at the age of 19 months. Serial casting by Dr. Hedden at Sick Kid's Hospital. Currently being treated by Dr. Rivard and Dr. Coillard in Montreal with the Spinecor brace and curve is holding at "2" degrees. Next appointment 2008

  13. #13
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    Structural: You're quite selective in choosing the most obscure examples within the profession
    I was referring to the 'case' in point you selected, not the Dr. himself. And yes, he is the equivalent of an MD, not the pseudo-doctor Stephen Barrett (a.k.a. - psychiatrist) who heads quackwatch. Since when does a Dr. of psychiatry become the authoritative and reputable expert on physical medicine????

    Have you bothered to read anything else he has written in the book, or other books, medical journals, research papers, clinical studies, etc.... ? Or would that challenge your point too strongly?

    So do you have any comments on my reply to your previous post? Or does it not serve your purpose here to respond to them. Any response to the credibility of this man as seen in the examples I gave? Or do you refuse to acknowledge that a prominent world-renowned surgeon gave a referral to him for an extremely rare and complicated case. Is that what prominent surgeons do? Pawn off their career topping cases to quacks?

    Celia,
    As usual, your post serves no purpose other than to antagonize and display you're ignorance on the topic. If you base your assumption about all of this on what Gerbo and Linda are posting.... well that says enough. They are known for revealing only that which will prove their points.

    Linda did this not too long ago on 'genetic factors' by posting an outdated study when their was a larger follow-up to that study done four years later showing the opposite conclusion that she was trying to make. Selectivity doesn't make for good advice.

    If you people consider yourselves impartial and objective (far cry) then continue your 'research' and present both sides.... As there are countless cases in which this work had positive and sometimes dramatic effect on a variety of conditions when everything else failed to provide results. (kind of sounds like bracing... sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes it's minor effect and sometimes it's drastic)
    Last edited by structural75; 03-22-2007 at 12:37 PM.

  14. #14
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    ok, fair enough, you choose the man, I choose his book, that seems fair enough. Question remains do you think that quote from that book by mr Upledger was correct?? I am sure that you agree that whilst writing that (if he did) he'd lost it a bit....???? Once I have that clear I am happy to look at any challenges you give me.

    ps; do you do this cranio-sacral therapy??

  15. #15
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    Gerbo,
    What this excerpt fails to clarify for you is the cranial mechanisms behind which he was working with. Notice the book has more than one chapter. The effect of the toxin on the infant's brain/neurologic development and its consequential effect on various membranes, ventricles, etc.. What your not reading about is the 'scientific', anatomical and craniobiomechanical palpations that he is experiencing and evaluating during the treatment. Is it possible to communicate intelligently with someones system... absolutely. Surgeons aren't accustomed to this for MANY reasons, one being that a scalpel is an inanimate object of course and is not designed to 'communicate' as the human hand is capable of... nor is that it's intended purpose.

    You may, of course, refuse to respond to my previous points, but whether you choose to respond or not and whether you can understand or appreciate what he is talking about doesn't make your point. I presented those examples and descriptions because I felt they are ones you can relate to, can you not?. I don't expect you to understand what he's discussing in that excerpt from his book.

    p.s. - No, I do not per say... but let's just say where one membrane in the body 'stops', another begins. There are very few beginnings and ends to the soft tissue body. By the first 6 weeks of embryological development the connective tissue body is established, in which all bones, muscle cells, nerves, blood vessels and organs find their appropriate homes within. Distinguishing parts as surgeons do is a reality of the knife, not the body.

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