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  • #16
    You know... I think some people who continually say those in healthcare industry are only out for their own good have had terrible doctors and didn't know how to advocate for themselves. This isn’t directed at anyone, I’m really just ranting. I sometimes find it upsetting since I am in a healthcare industry… no direct patient contact, but what I do is for patient and medical education amongst other things. The doctors/health care providers that are only in it for the money I think, are few and far in between but since they get more lip, people get the idea that the healthcare industry is mostly out for their own gain. Actually, I know a current student at my alma matter who quit her abdominal surgery practice due to rising cost of overhead, liability insurance ect. she just wasn't getting enough income for her to keep her practice open.

    Maybe it is hard to make a concrete treatment protocol for scoliosis is due to scoliosis being so varied in presentation and progression in each person. It's not clean cut like where if you replace a missing enzyme, you are cured. Same goes for any trials for treatment, there’s only a small time frame in which someone with scoliosis can opt for non-surgical treatment, if you miss the window of opportunity, and it’s not coming back. So naturally most people would try something that HAS been proven to work in the past.

    jshannon -- What kind of revolution in healthcare are you looking for? I see changes in medicine all the time, medicine is not and never has been stagnant.
    30 something y.o.

    2003 - T45, L???
    2005 - T50, L31
    bunch of measurements between...

    2011 - T60, L32
    2013 - T68, L?

    Posterior Fusion Sept 2014 -- T3 - L3
    Post - op curve ~35


    Comment


    • #17
      Hi Green...

      This is one of my favorite topics.

      I guess I've been blessed. Of the many physicians I've seen professionally or known in my lifetime, I really think only one was in it for the money. And, I have a nephew in medical school. I see how hard he's working, and I know his heart, and I wonder if he'll ever even make enough money to pay off all of his student loans.

      Karen's post above, is to me, right on. I see an awful lot of claims that these various alternative treatments work, but I've yet to see one published study proving anything. At least the traditional medical community publishes their results.... good or bad.

      I do understand that there are a lot of desperate people trying to avoid surgery. And, I sure hope that someone, somehow, some day, comes up with a way to keep anyone from ever having to have scoliosis surgery. If someone is REALLY motivated to avoid surgery, I'd recommend trying Elise Miller's "Yoga for Scoliosis." (http://www.yogaforscoliosis.com) This is the one treatment that is relatively inexpensive, and for which I've actually seen results. It's not going to permanently reduce one's curves (no non-surgical treatment has ever been proven to do that. It might, however, help someone avoid surgery.

      Regards,
      Linda
      Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
      Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

      Comment


      • #18
        wow...linda...slow down..you are actually making recommendation on a procedure with no study whatsoever? I hope you are not basing your recommendation on anecdotal cases...afterall..you are very much against that aren't you???
        An important scientific innovation rarely makes its way by gradually winning over and converting its opponents: it rarely happens that Saul becomes Paul. What does happen is that its opponents gradually die out, and that the growing generation is familiarised with the ideas from the beginning.

        Max Planck (the founder of Quantum Physics)

        Comment


        • #19
          I know you're trying to bait me. I wouldn't do that if I were you.

          If/when someone shows me real anecdotal evidence that a therapy works to reduce curves, I'll be happy to talk about it. I've seen Elise Miller's before and after xrays. I believe that if she ever stops exercising for more than a day or two, her curve will return to at least it's original degree.

          My only problem with alternative therapies is that their practitioners usually seem to have the need to lie about the results.

          --Linda
          Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
          Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by LindaRacine
            I know you're trying to bait me. I wouldn't do that if I were you.

            If/when someone shows me real anecdotal evidence that a therapy works to reduce curves, I'll be happy to talk about it. I've seen Elise Miller's before and after xrays. I believe that if she ever stops exercising for more than a day or two, her curve will return to at least it's original degree.

            My only problem with alternative therapies is that their practitioners usually seem to have the need to lie about the results.

            --Linda
            Is entire life a battle for you? don't worry I don't think of you as fish..would never try to bait you...

            anyway..so you feel after correction is achieved some type of maintenance care is recommended even in miller's protocol..however, if a chiropractor told patients they need maintenence care, it's somehow different from this exercise program you are pushing??

            You can either be 'scientific' or not...let's at least try to be honest when we are biased...as hard as it is for one to see oneself...at your age I'd think you'd have overcome that...
            An important scientific innovation rarely makes its way by gradually winning over and converting its opponents: it rarely happens that Saul becomes Paul. What does happen is that its opponents gradually die out, and that the growing generation is familiarised with the ideas from the beginning.

            Max Planck (the founder of Quantum Physics)

            Comment


            • #21
              Yes, I'm saying that SHOULD a chiropractor ever prove that he can permanently reduce a structural scoliosis curve, then that person would also have to continue treatment for the rest of their lives if they want to maintain the correction.
              Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
              ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
              Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

              Comment


              • #22
                [QUOTE=sportsdoc
                You can either be 'scientific' or not...let's at least try to be honest when we are biased...as hard as it is for one to see oneself...at your age I'd think you'd have overcome that...[/QUOTE]
                I guess we could say the same thing about you. You can either be unscientific or not. From a post you made in another thread yesterday, you seem to think that the Migun Thermal Massage Bed is fairy dust, but as far as I can tell, they have exactly the same amount of proof that their treatment works as you do... ZERO.

                We're all a little biased.

                --Linda
                Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
                ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
                Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

                Comment


                • #23
                  let's not get too emotional..that's what teenagers do...
                  as far as scoliosis treatment goes, I understand more studies are needed..
                  as far as efficacy of treatment in other spine conditions...I could give you tons of studies on how effective chirorpactic has been compared to any conventional methods...

                  Linda...I don't know what your peeve is...I just came from spine symposium put on by prominent spine surgeons in CA and they all agree in complicated low back pain, they'd try chirorpactic first...we don't have to prove anything..it's already proven to be the most effective treatment study after study...it's track records are safer than over the counter headache medicines.....do your study...your hatred on chiropractoc doesn't stop on scoliosis...you seem to distrust the whole profession in general...your source of information is quackwatch..there's a scientific resource for everyone lol..

                  Your life seems to revolve around scoliosis and your surgeons...get out and have a life...if your surgery was so successful, you should be able to lead a normal life and get on with it...I'm sure your surgeons would appreciate that also if they really cared about you...
                  Last edited by sportsdoc; 05-10-2006, 01:18 PM.
                  An important scientific innovation rarely makes its way by gradually winning over and converting its opponents: it rarely happens that Saul becomes Paul. What does happen is that its opponents gradually die out, and that the growing generation is familiarised with the ideas from the beginning.

                  Max Planck (the founder of Quantum Physics)

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by sportsdoc
                    let's not get too emotional..that's what teenagers do...
                    as far as scoliosis treatment goes, I understand more studies are needed..
                    as far as efficacy of treatment in other spine conditions...I could give you tons of studies on how effective chirorpactic has been compared to any conventional methods...

                    Linda...I don't know what your peeve is...I just came from spine symposium put on by prominent spine surgeons in CA and they all agree in complicated low back pain, they'd try chirorpactic first...we don't have to prove anything..it's already proven to be the most effective treatment study after study...it's track records are safer than over the counter headache medicines.....do your study...your hatred on chiropractoc doesn't stop on scoliosis...you seem to distrust the whole profession in general...your source of information is quackwatch..there's a scientific resource for everyone lol..

                    Your life seems to revolve around scoliosis and your surgeons...get out and have a life...if your surgery was so successful, you should be able to lead a normal life and get on with it...I'm sure your surgeons would appreciate that also if they really cared about you...
                    If I'd posted that, you would be accusing me of a personal attack.

                    You may be surprised to know that I believe in chiropractic treatment for back pain. I see a chiropractor several times a year for neck pain. And, I just tried a course of treatment for rib pain. (The treatment actually made the pain worse, by the way.)

                    I'm going to try to be as clear as possible. This is my PERSONAL OPINION. I am not a medical professional.

                    I believe that no one has ever proven that chiropractic treatment, or any alternative treatment, can permanently affect structural scoliosis curves in skeletally mature individuals. I do believe that some people with structural scoliosis curves may be able to avoid surgery by means of various alternative treatments. I believe that to successfully avoid surgery, those patients just mentioned, will need to continue treatment indefinitely, or their curves will return to at least their original degree.

                    If/when someone publishes a study in a peer-reviewed journal that proves they can permanently reduce structural scoliosis curves, and that their results can be reproduced by others, I will be the loudest voice encouraging patients to seek that treatment.

                    --Linda
                    Last edited by LindaRacine; 05-10-2006, 04:21 PM.
                    Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
                    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
                    Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Linda...with all due respect..
                      your post sounds all good...
                      but that's not what I see..
                      your posts have patterns...
                      for me to point out would be pointless..
                      if you don't see it yourself, you won't see it if someone else pointed out to you..

                      Go back and read your posts. We'd all like to think ourselves as "fair"...but we rarely are..myself included. Frankly, that shouldn't matter in most cases. You seem to have strong opinions on what people should and shouldn't do...and a few number of young people seems to have formed a little group around you...so you do have some influence..that makes you dangerous.

                      You come dangerously close to giving medical advice on this forum, if not outright giving one, even overriding other physician's recommendations.

                      Linda, there are reasons why most physicians who's in right mind don't do diagnosing or recommend treatments online. Having seen many different conditions clinically, I know there's no way for me to know exactly what the patient's condition is or what treatment they should be seeking just based on what the patient tells me.

                      As complicated as scoliosis is, you seem to have no reserve on claiming to know what's good for someone and what's not...

                      you are right in one thing. you are not a professional..and even if you were, it'd be inappropriate for you to play one on internet...

                      As far as alternative methods go whether it's chiropractic or exercise or yoga, they all have their good and bad...it is obvious surgery isn't a cure and isn't for everyone. Let's not discourage others from trying to find what works for them.

                      This is a scoliosis support form..not online scoliosis clinic..
                      An important scientific innovation rarely makes its way by gradually winning over and converting its opponents: it rarely happens that Saul becomes Paul. What does happen is that its opponents gradually die out, and that the growing generation is familiarised with the ideas from the beginning.

                      Max Planck (the founder of Quantum Physics)

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by sportsdoc
                        Linda...with all due respect..
                        your post sounds all good...
                        but that's not what I see..
                        your posts have patterns...
                        for me to point out would be pointless..
                        if you don't see it yourself, you won't see it if someone else pointed out to you..

                        Go back and read your posts. We'd all like to think ourselves as "fair"...but we rarely are..myself included. Frankly, that shouldn't matter in most cases. You seem to have strong opinions on what people should and shouldn't do...and a few number of young people seems to have formed a little group around you...so you do have some influence..that makes you dangerous.

                        You come dangerously close to giving medical advice on this forum, if not outright giving one, even overriding other physician's recommendations.

                        Linda, there are reasons why most physicians who's in right mind don't do diagnosing or recommend treatments online. Having seen many different conditions clinically, I know there's no way for me to know exactly what the patient's condition is or what treatment they should be seeking just based on what the patient tells me.

                        As complicated as scoliosis is, you seem to have no reserve on claiming to know what's good for someone and what's not...

                        you are right in one thing. you are not a professional..and even if you were, it'd be inappropriate for you to play one on internet...

                        As far as alternative methods go whether it's chiropractic or exercise or yoga, they all have their good and bad...it is obvious surgery isn't a cure and isn't for everyone. Let's not discourage others from trying to find what works for them.

                        This is a scoliosis support form..not online scoliosis clinic..
                        So, now we're off the topic of whether chiropractic treatments can reduce curves? If you can't beat me in one arena, you have to try others. I've given you enough of my energy today. You can attack me all that you want. I know that my motives are pure. Can we say the same for you? That's as close as I'll get to the type of personal attack you've thrown at me today.
                        Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
                        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
                        Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I see...so you are pure at heart and I'm somehow impure..and somehow that's just being close to personal attack..
                          Is that an objective observation?
                          Let's turn the table then..if you feel you were attacked, than I'll let you have a go at me..you have my permission to hurt me...don't hold back...
                          tell me how my motives are impure...what's on your mind?
                          I'd really like to know...
                          An important scientific innovation rarely makes its way by gradually winning over and converting its opponents: it rarely happens that Saul becomes Paul. What does happen is that its opponents gradually die out, and that the growing generation is familiarised with the ideas from the beginning.

                          Max Planck (the founder of Quantum Physics)

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Dear sportsdoc

                            The one big difference between you-- and Linda and me is she and I have scoliosis. This disorder has such an enormous impact on a person, in so many ways, that we feel compelled to share our experience, strength and hope.

                            I also trust YOU are NOT a PARENT of a child with scoliosis.

                            That having been said--- YOU have NOT WALKED THE WALK!!!. In that sense nothing you share on this forum will have the same validity as one of us--PARENT or PATIENT who live and struggled with all aspects of this problem.

                            SO WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE ANYWAY????

                            This is a MODERATED forum and Linda Racine is the official moderator.

                            I do not see any medical advice here and I am a medical professional. Telling a person to visit a scoliosis specialist is NOT medical advice. As far as I can see Linda has not performed spine surgery, prescribed a brace or written an order for PT. Telling a person what published studies show so far--is not medical advice. Posting what usually helped us and what didn't--is not medical advice.
                            Last edited by Karen Ocker; 05-10-2006, 05:39 PM.
                            Original scoliosis surgery 1956 T-4 to L-2 ~100 degree thoracic (triple)curves at age 14. NO hardware-lost correction.
                            Anterior/posterior revision T-4 to Sacrum in 2002, age 60, by Dr. Boachie-Adjei @Hospital for Special Surgery, NY = 50% correction

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Dear sportsdoc --continued

                              The fact that your name on the forum is "sportsdoc" seems like it's meant to give the impression the YOU can give medical advice or that YOUR info is more valid that anyone else. This can mislead forum participants to thinking this forum has its own "sportsdoc" giving valid advice. This is dishonest and a disservice to scoliosis patients and families. Could there be other motives like acting as a referral service to your friends or to unproven therapies playing on patients/parent fears?

                              If your are are sportsdoc then come clean and tell us if you are an orthopedic surgeon specializing in sports injuries, a dentist, a urologist, an eyedoctor.

                              Therei s nothing you have posted so far that impresses me both as a scoliosis patient or professionally .
                              Original scoliosis surgery 1956 T-4 to L-2 ~100 degree thoracic (triple)curves at age 14. NO hardware-lost correction.
                              Anterior/posterior revision T-4 to Sacrum in 2002, age 60, by Dr. Boachie-Adjei @Hospital for Special Surgery, NY = 50% correction

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                hmmm...
                                no..my children do not have scoliosis nor do I...
                                But anyone who's a parent can empathize with pain another parent may go through...yes..empathize..I think any decent parent wouldn't have hard time realizing that...

                                what am I doing here? what do you think? if you are medical professional (what type?) what do you think a healthcare professional would have to gain from here? i can only think of one thing...

                                One can NEVER be a good clinician without knowing what their patients are going through..I know that because until I had back pain for myself and was crippled, however short time it was, I could not empathize with what the patients were experiencing...

                                no I don't have valuable insight to share here...most people were doing fine before I was here and my presence won't change the fact..I'm not here to change anyone's lives...I don't have the power to do that..so are you..and so's linda...at least I don't have an illusion...

                                I mainly came here to take from others..their experiences...without developing scolisis myself..this is closest thing one can get in experiencing scoliosis...for me, being a chiropractor, patients' life style issue is just as big as the disease/condition itself...

                                You guys can go on assuming on my 'impure' intent all you want...I still get what i need from just reading other's posts...I don't need anyone to think best of me or even trust me here...and i'm not looking for it...

                                But that's not what I see from some here..including Linda..especially Linda...she does more than share her story...when someone's so involved with other people's lives like that and claim their motives are 'pure'...i don't know...it's always been my experience that those who claim to be 'pure' tends to be exactly opposite..but that's must my experience..

                                People usually see in others what they don't like in themselves...i'm just trying to assess what exactly she assumed she saw in me...

                                has her being the moderator..what of it? is that some kind of special badge that let's her control other people's behavior here? Hey..she can ban me...i have nothing to lose from being banned here. i have gained as much valuable insight as i can and am ready to leave anyway...and you guys could have the whole forum all to yourselves...

                                but before I leave..it'd really like to know..from Linda if she's never done what I've acused her of doing on the other post..not from you Karen...you don't have access to her private messages do you? I've had pm from several people regarding exactly that..

                                she knows what she had done and there are others reading this thread...so i don't think she'd lie...i'll take her word for it...either way...

                                btw, karen, would someone urging another to not trust their current physician or urging someone to forgo their physician's recommendation and give alternate options constitute medical advice or just friendly chitchat??
                                telling someone to see specialist is one thing...to overrule another physician's diagnosis or treatment protocol is quite another...in my opinion that is...
                                An important scientific innovation rarely makes its way by gradually winning over and converting its opponents: it rarely happens that Saul becomes Paul. What does happen is that its opponents gradually die out, and that the growing generation is familiarised with the ideas from the beginning.

                                Max Planck (the founder of Quantum Physics)

                                Comment

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