Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 38

Thread: Startling statistics regarding scoliosis surgery

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Posts
    8

    Question Startling statistics regarding scoliosis surgery

    https://www.treatingscoliosis.com/scoliosis-surgery/

    What are your thoughts on this article?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    9,280
    Quote Originally Posted by EL-34 View Post
    https://www.treatingscoliosis.com/scoliosis-surgery/

    What are your thoughts on this article?
    Here are my thoughts:

    1. STOP READING CRAP WRITTEN BY CHIROS!
    2. STOP READING CRAP WRITTEN BY CHIROS!
    3. STOP READING CRAP WRITTEN BY CHIROS!
    4. STOP READING CRAP WRITTEN BY CHIROS!
    5. Chiros are not trained to be discussing this.
    6. STOP READING CRAP WRITTEN BY CHIROS!
    7. STOP READING CRAP WRITTEN BY CHIROS!
    8. Chiro schools have the lowest required GPA of all the allied health schools.
    9. STOP READING CRAP WRITTEN BY CHIROS!
    10. STOP READING CRAP WRITTEN BY CHIROS!
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    9,280

    Chiro sits on a throne of lies

    https://www.chirobase.org/ (Many of these posts are older but NOTHING has changed w.r.t. chiro sitting on a throne of lies and chiros NOT being trained to deal with scoliosis.)

    Check out this geniusry... https://www.chirobase.org/03Edu/adm.html

    https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/sci...-chiropractic/

    https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/chi...erview-part-i/
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    7,104
    I totally agree with Pooka. If you want to research surgical outcomes, you should absolutely stay away from chiropractic sites.

    Also, because your child has congenital scoliosis, you should try to stick, as much as possible, to reading about congenital surgery outcomes. Here's a study that quotes outcome statistics from hemi-vertebrae surgery:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21092461

    --Linda
    Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
    Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Posts
    8
    The Mayo clinic states that fusion is a generally safe surgery.

    The most severe complication is nerve damage.

    This is the kind of stuff I am looking for.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Posts
    8
    Quote Originally Posted by LindaRacine View Post
    I totally agree with Pooka. If you want to research surgical outcomes, you should absolutely stay away from chiropractic sites.

    Also, because your child has congenital scoliosis, you should try to stick, as much as possible, to reading about congenital surgery outcomes. Here's a study that quotes outcome statistics from hemi-vertebrae surgery:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21092461

    --Linda
    Is that article based on Chinese operations or US operations.

    35 of 35 patients were helped. I heard the chance of failure of this surgery was 10%. By failing I mean paralysis during surgery.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    9,280
    Quote Originally Posted by EL-34 View Post
    I heard the chance of failure of this surgery was 10%. By failing I mean paralysis during surgery.
    What is the source of that statistic? It sounds high but I don't know of course. Let's just say I bet it is not true.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    7,104
    Quote Originally Posted by EL-34 View Post
    Is that article based on Chinese operations or US operations.

    35 of 35 patients were helped. I heard the chance of failure of this surgery was 10%. By failing I mean paralysis during surgery.
    Not sure why it makes a difference, but I would assume its Chinese patients. For the most part, if you want to know what might happen in your child's case, you're going to have to wait until her surgeon publishes their statistics.

    Congenital scoliosis is a pretty horrid diagnosis. Surgery is definitely complex, and complications are not uncommon. Doing nothing also has a downside. Has your surgeon talked about what the future looks like if no surgery is done?

    Here are some additional papers that might be of interest:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27927556
    https://www.hindawi.com/journals/aorth/2017/4213413/
    https://josr-online.biomedcentral.co...018-018-0946-3
    https://www.thespinejournalonline.co...113-3/fulltext

    --Linda
    Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
    Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Posts
    148
    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Here are my thoughts:

    1. STOP READING CRAP WRITTEN BY CHIROS!
    2. STOP READING CRAP WRITTEN BY CHIROS!
    3. STOP READING CRAP WRITTEN BY CHIROS!
    4. STOP READING CRAP WRITTEN BY CHIROS!
    5. Chiros are not trained to be discussing this.
    6. STOP READING CRAP WRITTEN BY CHIROS!
    7. STOP READING CRAP WRITTEN BY CHIROS!
    8. Chiro schools have the lowest required GPA of all the allied health schools.
    9. STOP READING CRAP WRITTEN BY CHIROS!
    10. STOP READING CRAP WRITTEN BY CHIROS!
    Pooka, we know how you feel about chiros. Even fakers might be right about some things.
    Wondering if you (or anyone) knows if there is any truth to this statement in that link:

    "Although we don't know the exact causes of idiopathic scoliosis, research does show that miscommunication between the brain and body causes its progression. The postural control centers in the brain should create automatic responses and send out a signal that the body is not balanced, but they don't."

    I'd like to see a writeup of this research, if it exists.
    Last edited by Tina_R; 04-16-2020 at 12:51 PM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    9,280
    Quote Originally Posted by Tina_R View Post
    Pooka, we know how you feel about chiros. Even fakers might be right about some things.
    Wondering if you (or anyone) knows if there is any truth to this statement in that link:

    "Although we don't know the exact causes of idiopathic scoliosis, research does show that miscommunication between the brain and body causes its progression. The postural control centers in the brain should create automatic responses and send out a signal that the body is not balanced, but they don't."

    I'd like to see a writeup of this research, if it exists.
    That statement appears to be self-serving chiro bullshit. They make shit up. I doubt there is actual research. There is chiro "research" which is solid nonsense. They are not only not trained in research but they are not even trained in science.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Posts
    148
    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    That statement appears to be self-serving chiro bullshit. They make shit up. I doubt there is actual research. There is chiro "research" which is solid nonsense. They are not only not trained in research but they are not even trained in science.
    That's what I thought. This sounded like a story that would rope some people in. Probably even people like me who are looking for explanations. No, aching for explanations, of what causes this damn scoliosis. It sounds halfway plausible to someone who isn't trained in medicine. Not that it says much, it's vague.

    Maybe there is no chiro research, but it's possible chiros do make certain useful observations about their patients (if I can call them that). There might be some things they could teach doctors. Maybe that's why some doctors agree to co-exist with them. But if the chiros haven't compiled any data properly, vetted it in front of experts, and published the results, then it isn't science. It's do-it-yourself healing.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    7,104
    Quote Originally Posted by Tina_R View Post
    Pooka, we know how you feel about chiros. Even fakers might be right about some things.
    Wondering if you (or anyone) knows if there is any truth to this statement in that link:

    "Although we don't know the exact causes of idiopathic scoliosis, research does show that miscommunication between the brain and body causes its progression. The postural control centers in the brain should create automatic responses and send out a signal that the body is not balanced, but they don't."

    I'd like to see a writeup of this research, if it exists.
    If any real research existed regarding this, I'm fairly certain I would have heard about it by now. I haven't.
    Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
    Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Posts
    148
    Quote Originally Posted by EL-34 View Post
    https://www.treatingscoliosis.com/scoliosis-surgery/

    What are your thoughts on this article?
    The authors have made sure this article comes up near the top in google searches, giving it some appearance of authority.

    I can see why people are tempted to consult treatments like this - it's not great to have surgery. The surgery really changes your body and can have complications for some, maybe not as much for young people. If surgeons were more open and honest about that maybe patients would trust them more. Also if they would spell out what can happen in the absence of surgery, something that's admittedly hard to predict for any one sufferer of scoliosis.

    The treatment in this article with that asymmetrical suit the chiros have designed looks like a convincing idea. As I said, I can see why people are tempted by it.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    7,104
    Quote Originally Posted by Tina_R View Post
    If surgeons were more open and honest about that maybe patients would trust them more. Also if they would spell out what can happen in the absence of surgery, something that's admittedly hard to predict for any one sufferer of scoliosis.
    It makes me sad that anyone thinks that most surgeons aren't open and honest. While I've heard some horror stories about surgeons, I have found that most surgeons are honest.

    As far as spelling out what absence of surgery means, I've heard for at least 30-40 years that adults with scoliosis typically have curve increases on average of 1 degree per year. And, again, on average, while that increase can bring pain and deformity, it typically doesn't lead to major health issues unless the thoracic curve reaches 100 degrees or more. At 100 degrees, thoracic curves often cause heart and lung issues.

    For the record, here's a very recent paper of interest on natural history:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31975257
    Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
    Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    9,280
    Quote Originally Posted by LindaRacine View Post
    For the record, here's a very recent paper of interest on natural history:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31975257

    Well that is very interesting... first evidence of what has been apparent here in the anecdotes... you wait longer you lose more levels. on average, small sample size, etc. etc.

    The first thing that alerted me to this was seeing the prevalence of various types of curves in kids versus adults. If the adult stats I saw included non-AIS curves then I am wrong to compare kids and adults because adults will include a lot of lumbar degenerative cases. Assuming they were all AIS, Adults had more lumbar curves than kids which obviously means they sometimes develop if you don't treat T curves. Knowing this you would think they would lower the trigger angle on fusing T curves maybe to 40* from 50*. Forty degree curves certainly have a potential to progress. If that potential is large then I think they should lower the trigger angle if only to try to avoid lumbar involvement later in life.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •