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Thread: Janzen Bracing System for JIS

  1. #121
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    You guys have good memories....

    Come to think about it, there was another Female Chiro in the Denver, Boulder area that was treating a little girl with very large surgical curves. This of course is hard to forget, but I usually don't post on the Chiro or bracing threads.... This girl was around age 8 with a roughly 60 degree curves.

    When these little kids (pre-idiopathics) have curves, you really have to wonder if and what the underlying cause is ? Its more of a reason to seek professional assistance through a scoliosis surgeon or neurologist. I remember Pam telling me years ago about her shunt that was installed way before her surgeries.....These things are extremely important.

    I really hope Chiro's "at least" have the common sense to refer these patients. As a Chiropractor, can you imagine a parent reporting that their child is now in the hospital in serious condition while under "YOUR CARE"?

    How could anyone do anything with a kid an not know?

    I would like to know what Dr Boachie would say on this topic? For volume of serious deformity cases in children, he probably see's the most.

    The air pollution is heavy today. I hate pollution...

    Ed
    49 yr old male, now 61, the new 61...
    Pre surgery curves T70,L70
    ALIF/PLIF T2-Pelvis 01/29/08, 01/31/08 7" pelvic anchors BMP
    Dr Brett Menmuir St Marys Hospital Reno,Nevada

    Bending and twisting pics after full fusion
    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...on.&highlight=

    My x-rays
    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...2&d=1228779214

    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...3&d=1228779258

  2. #122
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    I agree, Ed.

    I can only conclude that chiros do NOT understand the serious nature of JIS and how there are often other medical findings that have to be dealt with by a real doctor.

    A rational, kind person would know and admit they are not trained to treat serious condition in a small child and tell the parents to go to a board certified pediatric orthopedic surgeon.

    It is beyond skin crawling to see chiros dealing with JIS. How do they sleep at night?
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  3. #123
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    I don't know..... I don't know.

    I recently found out that my surgeon did a scoliosis mission in the Dominican Republic. Boy, did that ever score BIG points with me! This is not some young doctor going on training. This is the real deal. It proves integrity and caring.

    When we have excellent surgeons here at home, it makes no sense to ignore, or not believe, or be afraid. These kids in some of these countries are so lucky to have this happen while some of our kids at home in the US get ignored. Is this insanity? I know I would want to know. I would want to know even if there was no answer.

    I might send an e-mail to FOCOS and see if Dr Boachie answers. I have to think about how I will write this......If I get a reply, I will post.

    Ed
    49 yr old male, now 61, the new 61...
    Pre surgery curves T70,L70
    ALIF/PLIF T2-Pelvis 01/29/08, 01/31/08 7" pelvic anchors BMP
    Dr Brett Menmuir St Marys Hospital Reno,Nevada

    Bending and twisting pics after full fusion
    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...on.&highlight=

    My x-rays
    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...2&d=1228779214

    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...3&d=1228779258

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by titaniumed View Post
    I don't know..... I don't know.

    I recently found out that my surgeon did a scoliosis mission in the Dominican Republic. Boy, did that ever score BIG points with me! This is not some young doctor going on training. This is the real deal. It proves integrity and caring.

    When we have excellent surgeons here at home, it makes no sense to ignore, or not believe, or be afraid. These kids in some of these countries are so lucky to have this happen while some of our kids at home in the US get ignored. Is this insanity? I know I would want to know. I would want to know even if there was no answer.

    I might send an e-mail to FOCOS and see if Dr Boachie answers. I have to think about how I will write this......If I get a reply, I will post.

    Ed
    Our ortho/ped goes to South America a couple of times a year (I think Chile but am not certain). He said that he routinely treats people there with 100+ degree curves.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by titaniumed View Post
    Come to think about it, there was another Female Chiro in the Denver, Boulder area that was treating a little girl with very large surgical curves. This of course is hard to forget, but I usually don't post on the Chiro or bracing threads.... This girl was around age 8 with a roughly 60 degree curves.
    Before I ever got involved with running a support group or moderating forums, I met a teenager in northern California, who had a curve well over 100 degrees. She was as deformed as the typical Dr. Boachie Ghanaian patient. She was treated by a chiropractor until DCFS got involved and forced her parents to take her to a scoliosis specialist. I blamed the parents as much as I blamed the chiropractor. How can one see how deformed one's child is getting, and not realize that chiropractic wasn't helping?
    Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
    Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by LindaRacine View Post
    Before I ever got involved with running a support group or moderating forums, I met a teenager in northern California, who had a curve well over 100 degrees. She was as deformed as the typical Dr. Boachie Ghanaian patient. She was treated by a chiropractor until DCFS got involved and forced her parents to take her to a scoliosis specialist. I blamed the parents as much as I blamed the chiropractor. How can one see how deformed one's child is getting, and not realize that chiropractic wasn't helping?
    That is so sad. This is a direct ramification of allowing chiros to use the "Dr." title in my opinion. People seem to think they are as educated as real doctors when that couldn't be farther from the truth. Chiros are not allowed to use the title in other parts of the world for a reason.

    This is also a direct ramification of the war on science of which chiros treating scoliosis are a particularly dangerous faction.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by titaniumed View Post
    I don't know..... I don't know.

    I recently found out that my surgeon did a scoliosis mission in the Dominican Republic. Boy, did that ever score BIG points with me! This is not some young doctor going on training. This is the real deal. It proves integrity and caring.

    When we have excellent surgeons here at home, it makes no sense to ignore, or not believe, or be afraid. These kids in some of these countries are so lucky to have this happen while some of our kids at home in the US get ignored. Is this insanity? I know I would want to know. I would want to know even if there was no answer.

    I might send an e-mail to FOCOS and see if Dr Boachie answers. I have to think about how I will write this......If I get a reply, I will post.

    Ed
    I predict that Dr. Boachie will not get involved in the debate. He's unlikely to say anything negative about chiropractors, as he is always very tactful. For the most part, that's true of most of the specialists I know. They'll typically say things like some patients get some benefit from xxxxxxx (fill in the blank with chiropractor, acupuncturist, yoga, Pilates, etc.), but it's important that these patients are evaluated by a fellowship trained orthopaedist or neurosurgeon.
    Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
    Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    I have given this further thought. It is beyond unusual. It is an extraordinary claim that will require extraordinary proof. Because we are dealing with chiros, that is likely never going to be forthcoming.

    Unless the before and after images were taken under the care of a board certified pediatric orthopedic surgeon, I am skeptical it is as advertised. Very, very skeptical. If it can be documented, the images and record should be forwarded to someone competent to publish it. Nobody should be holding their collective breaths.

    I won't be holding my breath. I went back to those images to look again. I was focused on the "greatest curve" but I did notice that the lesser curve (of 2) was 17 degrees immediately out of brace and 22 degrees on the 51 day post-bracing image. That leaves 2 curves in the low 20s at 51 days post-op, but if any curves kept increasing at the 5 degrees-every-50-days pace, the long-term outlook wouldn't be good.

    I found this too, from the place where Grant Wood, CO, (seems like he is one of the top orthotists?) works:

    http://www.align-clinic.com/casepres...ns-437506.html

    If you scroll down to case presentation #4, they have out-of-brace measures for out of brace at 24 hours, 6 months, 19 months, and 31 months. This seems like a case of significant curve improvement in an AIS case. However, I looks like both curves regressed by 5 degrees at the 6 month mark. The don't have measures on the 19 month and 31 month images, but they look very similar to the 6 month image. After some regression, maybe the curves kind of settle into where they are going to stay after a few months out of brace? This case still looks pretty good at 31 months post bracing anyway. It could be a 1 in 500 case, but notable and seemingly from a reputable guy.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Yes that was it! She came on here pretending to be just another parent of a child with AIS until it was revealed that she was a chiro touting chiro for scoliosis. I think she actually did have a child with scoliosis and apparently the chiro nonsense wasn't helping. What a shock. She did come across as very concerned or torn between supporting the nonsense and trying to help her child. I hope she got medical treatment for her child. It scares the hell out of me when chiros have children with some medical problem.

    She disappeared like all the chiros disappear when asked to pony up evidence. I can't remember her screen name. If we could remember it we can find those threads.
    Ok, this explain some of the way I was initially treated. I thought it was a little over the top at the time.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dustin76 View Post
    I won't be holding my breath. I went back to those images to look again. I was focused on the "greatest curve" but I did notice that the lesser curve (of 2) was 17 degrees immediately out of brace and 22 degrees on the 51 day post-bracing image. That leaves 2 curves in the low 20s at 51 days post-op, but if any curves kept increasing at the 5 degrees-every-50-days pace, the long-term outlook wouldn't be good.

    I found this too, from the place where Grant Wood, CO, (seems like he is one of the top orthotists?) works:

    http://www.align-clinic.com/casepres...ns-437506.html

    If you scroll down to case presentation #4, they have out-of-brace measures for out of brace at 24 hours, 6 months, 19 months, and 31 months. This seems like a case of significant curve improvement in an AIS case. However, I looks like both curves regressed by 5 degrees at the 6 month mark. The don't have measures on the 19 month and 31 month images, but they look very similar to the 6 month image. After some regression, maybe the curves kind of settle into where they are going to stay after a few months out of brace? This case still looks pretty good at 31 months post bracing anyway. It could be a 1 in 500 case, but notable and seemingly from a reputable guy.
    Not convinced this is AIS and not JIS. Also not convinced this is typical at all of AIS.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by LindaRacine View Post
    I predict that Dr. Boachie will not get involved in the debate. He's unlikely to say anything negative about chiropractors, as he is always very tactful. For the most part, that's true of most of the specialists I know. They'll typically say things like some patients get some benefit from xxxxxxx (fill in the blank with chiropractor, acupuncturist, yoga, Pilates, etc.), but it's important that these patients are evaluated by a fellowship trained orthopaedist or neurosurgeon.
    Linda, I wasn't thinking about mentioning Chiro..... more on the lines of neurological disorders in congenital, early onset and juvenile scoliosis patients. The curves are symptoms of a problem, how important is it that a full neurological evaluation be done on the smallest of curves? If a person thinks its only 11 degrees on a very young child, does one really need to follow up on this? Brain, brain stem and upper spinal cord MRI analysis, Blood work, Karotype, and many other tests to rule things out.

    There are multitudes of physical deviations that give clues on disease....Fingers, feet, marks, hairy patches.....Name it. All sorts of things....Trained Ped doctors are trained to look for these things. (For Kleinfelter's, look at the pinky's curving inward.) Each disease has its own very special signs and signals. Hard to imagine a single specialist even knowing all of this, let alone a Chiropractor. I know all about this from my brother. You cant assume anything.

    There should be Orthopedic and Neurological standards set for Chiropractors. Medical Doctors do this a lot, they will refer out to another specialist. I actually changed my PCP to my scoliosis surgeon. He is trained the most, it makes the most sense and I was going to have him direct things.

    Scoliosis is so much more than many people think. You have to have experts rule things out.

    Proper diagnosis and its followup are also imperative in fighting disease. For example cancers. Time is everything.

    Ed
    49 yr old male, now 61, the new 61...
    Pre surgery curves T70,L70
    ALIF/PLIF T2-Pelvis 01/29/08, 01/31/08 7" pelvic anchors BMP
    Dr Brett Menmuir St Marys Hospital Reno,Nevada

    Bending and twisting pics after full fusion
    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...on.&highlight=

    My x-rays
    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...2&d=1228779214

    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...3&d=1228779258

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by titaniumed View Post
    Linda, I wasn't thinking about mentioning Chiro..... more on the lines of neurological disorders in congenital, early onset and juvenile scoliosis patients. The curves are symptoms of a problem, how important is it that a full neurological evaluation be done on the smallest of curves? If a person thinks its only 11 degrees on a very young child, does one really need to follow up on this? Brain, brain stem and upper spinal cord MRI analysis, Blood work, Karotype, and many other tests to rule things out.

    There are multitudes of physical deviations that give clues on disease....Fingers, feet, marks, hairy patches.....Name it. All sorts of things....Trained Ped doctors are trained to look for these things. (For Kleinfelter's, look at the pinky's curving inward.) Each disease has its own very special signs and signals. Hard to imagine a single specialist even knowing all of this, let alone a Chiropractor. I know all about this from my brother. You cant assume anything.

    There should be Orthopedic and Neurological standards set for Chiropractors. Medical Doctors do this a lot, they will refer out to another specialist. I actually changed my PCP to my scoliosis surgeon. He is trained the most, it makes the most sense and I was going to have him direct things.

    Scoliosis is so much more than many people think. You have to have experts rule things out.

    Proper diagnosis and its followup are also imperative in fighting disease. For example cancers. Time is everything.

    Ed
    Ed...

    I think most experienced deformity specialists send kids for thorough workups when there is something of suspicion (e.g., left thoracic curves, unusual height measurement, cafe au lait spots, sharp curves). When one has seen thousands of full spine xrays, the unusual ones really stick out. After sitting through about 500 Monday morning surgical conferences, I bet even I can spot most usual curves a mile away. While I'm sure there have been kids with syndromes that have slipped through the cracks, I'm begging it's pretty unusual to find a surprise diagnosis.

    --Linda
    Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
    Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dustin76 View Post
    Ok, this explain some of the way I was initially treated. I thought it was a little over the top at the time.
    Nobody is born knowing about chiros. Nobody would suspect how piss-poor their training really is. Nobody would guess the degree of intellectual dishonety among those who "treat" scoliosis exhibit.

    Some chiros understand that their people sit on a throne of lies (imaginary subluxations) and are attempting to rescue the field by forming a society for evidence-based chiro. I think they are legit and not engaging in subterfuge.

    My prediction is that whatever seems to work in chiro will be revealed to be massage or unpinching nerves or something that is actually medicine or at least based on physiology. If so there is no space that chiro uniquely occupies which makes sense given the field sits on a throne of lies.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  14. #134
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    Here is that case of hysterical scoliosis that the Janzeneseses thought they cured with some whack treatment...

    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...15*-in-a-month
    Last edited by Pooka1; 11-03-2019 at 10:20 AM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  15. #135
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    What doctors want to see from chiros...

    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...ros&highlight=
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

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