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Thread: Scott's Vertebral Body Tethering Thread

  1. #121
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    If the two pig spine studies are at all relevant, the side to side ROM of tethering, especially opposite the tether is about 1/4 that of the normal spine. If the dancer says she can do everything then she wasn't bending side to side much in her dancing which makes little sense to me. OR, like my daughter and like Ed, you can still have a fairly large ROM even with a fusion. So her dancing may be in range of what she can do with the tether.

    Look at the pictures of tethered spines. It is very easy to see why bending side to side and especially to the opposite side would be much less than normal. There is a very tight tether there. It is not elastic. It is less ROM than even staples per that one study.
    Last edited by Pooka1; 11-05-2018 at 06:21 AM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by burdle View Post
    I disagree- I think the opinions of the non-VBT practitioners will be based on a lack of up to date information as is what is being demonstrated over and over again.
    That is really not giving the other surgeons much credit. Look at Lonner who was following VBT for FIVE YEARS before he jumped in. He was following it and knew when he was comfortable jumping in.

    As with Lonner who cited potential disc issues and never stated anything about doubting the short term results, nobody doubts the short term results. I suspect most are just being cautious about the long term especially w.r.t. the discs. Five years was enough for Lonner. Maybe others have a longer timeline to see what happens before they commit. Who knows. But the point is surgeons are sitting out BECAUSE they are following along, not because they aren't and are simply unaware.

    Just as a side note, I heard a comment on doctor radio about only the cream of the cream in medical school are admitted into the orthopedic internships. So we are talking the smartest among smart people. There is little to no chance these people are ignorant of anything in their field. If they are not doing some procedure there is going to be a good reason as in Lonner's case.
    Last edited by Pooka1; 11-05-2018 at 06:49 AM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  3. #123
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    For Orthopedics, I have heard top 3%. This is after the USMLE is taken after 2 years of med school. Scores help determine the direction a doctor will take. If you score low, you can forget about brain surgery. (smiley face)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ng_Examination

    There are many avenues of interest an orthopedic can take.....Not all are going to be interested in tethering....Not all Orthodontists do Clear Invisalign braces....

    I believe it was Dr Winters who was a hand surgeon and was talked into scoliosis by Dr Moe when the SRS was founded back in the 60's.

    I am guessing he found it quite interesting.

    Ed
    49 yr old male, now 60, the new 55...
    Pre surgery curves C12,T70,L70
    ALIF/PLIF T2-Pelvis 01/29/08, 01/31/08 7" pelvic anchors BMP
    Dr Brett Menmuir St Marys Hospital Reno,Nevada

    Bending and twisting pics after full fusion
    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...on.&highlight=

    My x-rays
    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...2&d=1228779214

    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...3&d=1228779258

  4. #124
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    Wow very interesting, Ed. Thanks for posting.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  5. #125
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    If tethering immediately began destroying discs and within a few years it caused serious problems that would be a deal killer.

    However as a parent worried about Scoliosis if tethering caused Scott's discs to suffer more wear and tear and if by the age of 40 or 50 he may have disc problems I could live with that.

    There is a lot of research on disc regeneration and maybe in 20 or 30 years that won't be a problem. In addition there are artificial discs available today.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    If tethering immediately began destroying discs and within a few years it caused serious problems that would be a deal killer.

    However as a parent worried about Scoliosis if tethering caused Scott's discs to suffer more wear and tear and if by the age of 40 or 50 he may have disc problems I could live with that.

    There is a lot of research on disc regeneration and maybe in 20 or 30 years that won't be a problem. In addition there are artificial discs available today.
    I think you are right. I think tethering is going to pan out without disc damage. The fact that Lonner jumped in after so many years suggests to me he had seen enough to think it will pan out. I predict tethering will replace fusion in most cases. And these kids are going to feel normal. If my fused kid thought she had normal ROM then all these tethered kids are going to feel normal.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    I think tethering is going to pan out without disc damage. The fact that Lonner jumped in after so many years suggests to me he had seen enough to think it will pan out. I predict tethering will replace fusion in most cases. And these kids are going to feel normal. If my fused kid thought she had normal ROM then all these tethered kids are going to feel normal.
    I think so too. Even if tethering doesn't work for Scott and he is someday fused tethering bought him the time needed to reach his full spine/chest growth. It's worth it.

  8. #128
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    Video: M6 Artificial Disc Replacement (ADR) by Spinal Kinetics

    This artificial disc is absolutely amazing. I can only imagine what artificial discs will be like in 20 or 30 years.

    Hopefully by then they'll regenerate the discs with stem cells so that people can keep their original discs.

    They're working on it right now.
    DiscGenics Announces First Patient Treated in U.S. Clinical Trial of IDCT for Degenerative Disc Disease

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    If tethering immediately began destroying discs and within a few years it caused serious problems that would be a deal killer.
    Dingo, You know that nobody out there has abused their spine as bad as me.... I have posted skiing videos here to show, and after skiing big mountain style with jumps up to 70 feet, I must say that the spine can handle INCREDIBLE amounts of abuse. When you jump off a cornice at 70 feet, you land at around 100 MPH. Its a rush. I learned to turn off the chicken portion of my brain. I didn't crash much, but when I crashed, they were really bad crashes.....This is why I moved to Lake Tahoe. (smiley face) Deep powder skiing is a terrible addiction problem, and it had TOP priority over work! When the storms rolled in, I would get multiple phone calls from all my die hard skiing buddies. I came close to death a few times....On edge you might say....

    I started this abuse in 1962 at age 4. My lumbar discs herniated in 2002. 4 of them. That's 40 years. Over 100 areas in North America, and heli skied in British Columbia.

    Yes, I skied in pain sometimes.....but never ever on medication. That's what happened to Sonny Bono. 4PM, flat light, tree skiing after the 2nd day of snowfall, opoids, and a tree. Bad combination.

    I wouldn't assume that Scott's discs are going to take a dump.

    Ed
    49 yr old male, now 60, the new 55...
    Pre surgery curves C12,T70,L70
    ALIF/PLIF T2-Pelvis 01/29/08, 01/31/08 7" pelvic anchors BMP
    Dr Brett Menmuir St Marys Hospital Reno,Nevada

    Bending and twisting pics after full fusion
    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...on.&highlight=

    My x-rays
    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...2&d=1228779214

    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...3&d=1228779258

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by titaniumed View Post
    I started this abuse in 1962 at age 4. My lumbar discs herniated in 2002. 4 of them. That's 40 years. Over 100 areas in North America, and heli skied in British Columbia.
    Haha, Wow! Actually that is comforting. That's 40 years of POW!

    And realistically the herniation might have been the result of age. After 40 years it might have happened anyway even if you never skied at all.

  11. #131
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    The herniation's happened after a series of pillows, or large rocks covered with snow, 3 drops of 25 foot each in 3 feet of powder. It wasn't a big set....I didn't think it was a problem.

    I had no pain for 2 weeks, then the sciatica hit with major hip and ankle pain.(Delayed pain) This ended my jumping. (Jan 2002) I then started Celebrex and Bextra and battled that until my surgeries in 2008.

    I grew up on the East coast ice, and did many many hard ice landings through the years. I am an old east coast skier. Boiler plate ice conditions dodging rocks and hardly any gooming back in the old days. Head Standards with Cubco bindings. I started with bear trap bindings and screw on edges when I was really small. I have owned around 50 pairs of skis.

    Heck, I even made ESPN. That was cool. I wish I had that competition on video. I have looked and looked, and I cant find it. It was a Wayne Wong gig, he lives here in Reno. He is Elvis....I was invited while off the circuit. All these pros were wondering who I was. Ha ha None of them knew I was doing this with a really bad double rotational scoliosis at age 42. (Crazy stuff)

    I couldn't say anything, they would turn me down. It was an invite only Wayne can do. He told me I should have been on the pro circuit all these years.

    I was in really good shape years ago. Rock hard. Dr Menmuir even commented on it when he finally accepted me for surgery. (And I show up with a broke arm and shoulder!)

    Funny, the look of concern when he saw my arm and pulled on it. Nobody shows up for scoliosis surgery this beat. "What happened?" " I had a bad crash doc". They had to protect my arm while re-positioning me on the table for my scoli surgeries.

    Ed
    49 yr old male, now 60, the new 55...
    Pre surgery curves C12,T70,L70
    ALIF/PLIF T2-Pelvis 01/29/08, 01/31/08 7" pelvic anchors BMP
    Dr Brett Menmuir St Marys Hospital Reno,Nevada

    Bending and twisting pics after full fusion
    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...on.&highlight=

    My x-rays
    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...2&d=1228779214

    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...3&d=1228779258

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    Video: M6 Artificial Disc Replacement (ADR) by Spinal Kinetics

    This artificial disc is absolutely amazing. I can only imagine what artificial discs will be like in 20 or 30 years.

    Hopefully by then they'll regenerate the discs with stem cells so that people can keep their original discs.

    They're working on it right now.
    DiscGenics Announces First Patient Treated in U.S. Clinical Trial of IDCT for Degenerative Disc Disease
    They don't use artificial discs in scoliosis patients, its just not done. There are old threads here on this subject matter from around 10 years ago.

    There was one poster who had a artificial disc installed under a full fusion down under in Australia but she has not posted her outcome or posted in many years...

    The device looks great......6 degrees is better than none. Lumbar discs articulate between 22-25 degrees per the Moe handbook.

    Seeing that industrial video reminded me of these Swedish guys who crush stuff with a hydraulic press.....(Some entertainment)
    If you think your vice is tough, its not. Ha ha
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z255Ns8Sw0g&t=210s

    The people that submit to that study need to know what happened with Synthes....(read down)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthes

    God, I hate to burst balloons but the stem cell thing today is....well.....out of control. Too many out there with bogus materials doing expensive injections with a lot of hoopla.

    Ed
    49 yr old male, now 60, the new 55...
    Pre surgery curves C12,T70,L70
    ALIF/PLIF T2-Pelvis 01/29/08, 01/31/08 7" pelvic anchors BMP
    Dr Brett Menmuir St Marys Hospital Reno,Nevada

    Bending and twisting pics after full fusion
    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...on.&highlight=

    My x-rays
    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...2&d=1228779214

    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...3&d=1228779258

  13. #133
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    Hey Ed, maybe tethering is enough of a daparture from the status quo such that artifical discs can come into play for scoliosis. It just seems like the best thing to cone down the pike in a long time.

    In other news, Dolan and company presented a poster on predicting outcome based on various measureables. Anyway she now is going with less than 45 degrees and no growth remaining as her success level. This is better than 49 degrees with up to 25 % growth remaining that defined success in the BrAIST but not by much.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  14. #134
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    Sharon, The artificial discs look great but it seems that scoliosis surgeons are not sold on the idea or we would be seeing more activity....our discs are amazing devices to be able to put up with such punishment. If I had the latest artificial discs installed (before my fusion) and skied like I did, would they hold up? Probably not. The amounts of force on a bad crash are incredible....was I healing? I guess so. Just when you think you have something good, the Swede with the hydraulic press squashes that idea. Ok, next.....Scoliosis is like that, many ideas get crushed. Its been going on a really long time, the rack was 2500 years ago.

    I think that the ability to heal has a lot to do with things....adolescence and growth are so much different than adults, some like me, punishing their spines with little progression, (.75-1 degree per year) other adult de-novo's have scoliosis progress out of nowhere without inducing elevated forces. Is this due to degeneration? Or lack of healing? Predicting outcomes always has some exception to the rule....

    I noticed that the MRI inner ear studies in the white book go back to England a long time ago....Before Hong Kong (left inner ear, right thoracic)

    It seems that much of the clues with scoliosis start at birth... You have to wonder why because this eliminates degeneration. Why are these kids being born like this? Are we all congenital's, idiopathic with a delayed response with our altered CNS controlling our destiny? Scoliosis is Central Nervous System disease. Until we figure out the brain, ideas are only pieces of the puzzle.

    I feel sorry for scoliosis surgeons. Always trying to do their best with such complexity. If something goes wrong, how do they feel? People want answers, and sometimes there are no answers, or correct answers. They are having success with tethering which is good for the curves....but its not a cure for scoliosis.

    Ed
    49 yr old male, now 60, the new 55...
    Pre surgery curves C12,T70,L70
    ALIF/PLIF T2-Pelvis 01/29/08, 01/31/08 7" pelvic anchors BMP
    Dr Brett Menmuir St Marys Hospital Reno,Nevada

    Bending and twisting pics after full fusion
    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...on.&highlight=

    My x-rays
    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...2&d=1228779214

    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...3&d=1228779258

  15. #135
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    This issue of "cure" for scoliosis has come up before.

    In my opinion, if a tether or a rod brings the spine to <10* then the person is cured. Yes the ROM is less but that doesn't mean the cure didn't happen. I was cured of appendicitis despite the fact that I have a scar and apparently internal adhesions that seem to put me in a slight spiral left seat. If I relax, my horse will take as an aid to turn left. Just from sitting there. He is very sensitive and trained to take invisible ounce-like cues. You can't see it and I can't prove it is due to adhesions but from what I have read, that is plausible. At first I had to consciously unwind to be straight. Now I do it unconsciously when my body senses my horse is not tracking straight.

    If a tether or rod stabilizes the scoliosis at >10* then the scoliosis is not cured but in remission. My father had cancer for 25 years because he was never cured but in remission.

    Obviously we would like less scars, adhesions and more ROM but that doesn't mean the scoliosis isn't cured or not in remission.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

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