Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Why surgeons are not recommending Vbs/Vbt

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the...chiropractors/

    The Wilk Case

    In 1976 an antitrust lawsuit was filed by Chester A. Wilk and 4 other chiropractors (one of whom later dropped out) against not only the AMA but also against 9 other medical organizations such as the American College of Radiology, and against 4 individuals. This began an odyssey lasting 14 years, with two separate federal trials, a series of appeals, complicated legal wrangling, and conflicting evidence. Some of the defendants settled out of court; 6 organizations and one individual went to trial. The AMA won, but the judge was accused of improperly instructing the jury and allowing inaccurate documents into evidence, so there was a second trial. In 1987, Judge Susan Getzendanner dismissed the charges against some of the defendants but found the AMA guilty of violating Section 1 (but not Section 2) of the Sherman Antitrust Act. No damages were awarded. The AMA was only required to pay the plaintiffs’ legal costs and to change its policy and inform MDs that they could associate with chiropractors. Chiropractors crowed about their victory, but it actually did little to change “discriminatory” practices or to enhance the reputation of chiropractic.

    The decision was not by any stretch of the imagination an endorsement of chiropractic. The judge said:

    The study of how the five original named plaintiffs diagnosed and actually treated patients with common symptoms was particularly impressive. This study demonstrated that the plaintiffs do not use common methods in treating common symptoms and that the treatment of patients appears to be undertaken on an ad hoc rather than on a scientific basis… I am persuaded that the dominant factor was patient care and the AMA’s subjective belief that chiropractic was not in the best interests of patients… [but] this concern for scientific method in patient care could have been adequately satisfied in a manner less restrictive of competition.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by burdle View Post
      I am part of MENSA - just think on that... I don't wish to be rude but your English is really not up to any standard whereby you could use it in any debate about science!
      Prove it! Here you only show a worrying fault of logics., and certainlyiIf you would be so smart you could talk with me in Spanish..

      Comment


      • #63
        And don't forget to delete this, since it seems very clear you cannot prove I said that: 'Why do you think that your opinion that no-one should have Fusion surgery' Or do you want people thinking you are dishonest.. or do you want MENSA folks demanding you?

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by flerc View Post
          Prove it! Here you only show a worrying fault of logics., and certainlyiIf you would be so smart you could talk with me in Spanish..
          This comment is irrational.
          Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

          No island of sanity.

          Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
          Answer: Medicine


          "We are all African."

          Comment


          • #65
            It is irrational for people not able to understand it.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by burdle View Post
              I am part of MENSA - just think on that... I don't wish to be rude but your English is really not up to any standard whereby you could use it in any debate about science!
              Certainly smart people, as Scientist necesarily are, has not any probem to debate with me althoug my poor English. Even it is not a scientist forum (did you realized it?) you may see my large and productives debates with KevinMc, who we may say to be the only one scientist researcher here, since he proved it.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
                Excellent! Way beyond cool, Burdle.

                His English is passable. His command of the scientific facts is not. That claim about 50* being an automatic surgery trigger in an adult is shocking given he has been reading posts here for years. He either forgot a million posts or didn't understand them. The later possibility is why I said he sounded like a chiro... near total ignorance.

                That claim about 50* being an automatic surgery trigger in an adult is shocking given he has been reading posts here for years. He either forgot a million posts or didn't understand them.

                Wow! It clearly seems ths thread it bothers you too much! People without a logic mind only are only able to attack as you always do in discussions.. but clearly it seems you want the moderator close/delete it as you always did in non surgical threads. It seems you also don't want people talking about Vbt..

                Certainly the claim was > 50º, but it seems you forgot it or didn't understand the difference. Is tipical of people without a logic mind to believe they can understand why other people say what they say.. you have not the less idea about with how many surgeons I talked and not only of my country.. as I said in some posts I I know that in special cases as very old and without progression, they use to don't recommends fusion, but in common cases is what they does. Quote me please those posts saying the contrary
                Last edited by flerc; 02-01-2017, 08:32 AM.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by flerc View Post
                  Wow! It clearly seems ths thread it bothers you too much! People without a logic mind only are only able to attack as you always do in discussions.. but clearly it seems you want the moderator close/delete it as you always did in non surgical threads. It seems you also don't want people talking about Vbt..

                  Certainly the claim was > 50º, but it seems you forgot it or didn't understand the difference. Is tipical of people without a logic mind to believe they can understand why other people say what they say.. you have not the less idea about with how many surgeons I talked and not only of my country.. as I said in some posts I I know that in special cases as very old and without progression, they use to don't recommends fusion, but in common cases is what they does. Quote me please those posts saying the contrary
                  No one is disagreeing that surgeons recommend fusion IF surgery is needed/required. You seem to be saying that they should offer VBT as an option - why should they? If they do not think it is an option for their patient - why should they? As a patient I don't want to be told what wont help me- I want to be told what will. However IF I ask about VBT then I expect to be given reasons why it would not work in my case ( as I havn't been offered it)

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Without any doubt surgeons must to recommends fusion when it is needed. The problem is that probably as they uses to do, they understand something different for 'when it is needed'. For me means that is the only one reasonable option, for them is sufficient to have a curve >50º (except special cases).. yes, I know there are few exceptions around the world as is happening with Michelle.
                    Certainly I'm not able to imagine why an honest surgeon don't say to their clientes (those that might be accepted for having Vbt), that something like Vbt exists.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      That is, if they are sure (may them?) that someone are not a candidat for Vbt, is logic they don' t tell them about Vbt (if they don't have scoliotic sons) but in any other case, why they hides that important information?

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        I discard the possibility of a group of surgeons performing a kind of surgery that the rest of surgeons considers to be inapropiate. Why all the surgeons I know recommends only fusion to everyone with a curve > 50º regardless how young amd flexible may be and don't say nothing about Vbt?
                        Last edited by flerc; 02-01-2017, 02:47 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by flerc View Post
                          I discard the possibility of a group of surgeons performing a kind of surgery that the rest of surgeons considers to be inapropiate. Why all the surgeons I know recommends only fusion to everyone with a curve > 50º regardless how young amd flexible may be and don't say nothing about Vbt?

                          So you can confidently say that 'all these surgeons that you know' NEVER mention VBT. How can you possibly know that?. Do you sit in on the patient appointment- Do you have a direct line to all these surgeons? Surely it is reasonable to conclude that they don't mention it because it is not suitable for the patient. Michelle is not an 'exception' She like myself if the 'norm' in that surgey is avoide unless absolutely necessary.

                          I grant you that information about VBT may be slow in dissemination but that is likely to be because it is still 'experimental' We don't hava data for how many who have had VBT still go on to need fusion etc.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            I can imagine only one possibility: Surgeons wants to discourage people to prove with non surgical treatments so they go direct to fusion and an effective way is to contract thousands of trolls to invent their story in scoliosis sites (forums, groups, blogs..) saying that surgeons gave them fusion as the only one option. You may read about any kind of age and curve, a lot seems to be candidat for Vbt. When I asked about Vbt in those sites, nobody has idea about what I was saying, only 2 or 3 who have read about it. Of course I don't believe it, is the only possibility I can imagine to not be sure that is not true that they are not saying nothing about Vbt.
                            Last edited by flerc; 02-02-2017, 05:41 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              It has not any sense to say it is experimental! Something experimental should to be restricted and everyone (accomplishing the requirements) who wants to have a Vbt surgery may have it since many years ago!. It's only new for adults.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                There can't be much more than a few hundred cases of VBT in kids and recently skeletally mature young adults based on what I have read. If anyone knows different please advise.

                                That comes under the heading of experimental.

                                For mature adults there is one known case and one that was scheduled. I don't know if the second case happened.

                                That is REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY experimental.
                                Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                                No island of sanity.

                                Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                                Answer: Medicine


                                "We are all African."

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X