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Thread: A Chiropractor helping to avoid surgery

  1. #16
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    And just to spell things out a little more, if her curve increased as appears, that counts as a failure of the bracing all through high school and of the chiro "treatments".

    To Paige Fraser's credit, if she has a large curve, she has shown that while she couldn't stop progression, she has maintained a phenomenal amount of function. That's dedication like Martha Hawes has shown dedication to using PT.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    she has maintained a phenomenal amount of function. That's dedication like Martha Hawes has shown dedication to using PT.
    It’s the stretching.....

    I had my Chiropractors order me a professional stretching chair. It was around $1600, and I used it quite often for my scoliosis.

    I also stretched for skiing which is extremely important. I would say I stretched 50% for my scoliosis, and 50% for my skiing.

    This girl is doing just fine.....

    Ed
    49 yr old male, now 58, the new 53...
    Pre surgery curves C12,T70,L70
    ALIF/PLIF T2-Pelvis 01/29/08, 01/31/08 7" pelvic anchors BMP
    Dr Brett Menmuir St Marys Hospital Reno,Nevada

    Bending and twisting pics after full fusion
    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...on.&highlight=

    My x-rays
    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...2&d=1228779214

    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...3&d=1228779258

  3. #18
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    I think you are correct about the benefits of stretching.

    Of course we need to point out here that stretching is a concept within the science of physiology as applied within the scientific field of physical therapy. The fact that some chiros may use stretching doesn't make it chiro and certainly doesn't make chiro science-based.

    The only benefits to chiro that have ever been demonstrated are for pain relief in the lower back. But in that regard it is no better than PT. So the chiros are probably stealing whatever works withing PT and calling it chiro.

    The central claim of chiro is subluxations of the spine. But these subluxations have been proven to be imaginary... no two chiros can point to the same spot on the radiograph as to where the subluxation exists. Unless chiros can demonstrate a treatment that they didn't steal from PT, it will remain a non-science.
    Last edited by Pooka1; 09-11-2016 at 12:50 PM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    According to this, she had a 32 degree curve. Obviously she wasn't told she needed surgery then but may need surgery if it progresses. Maybe the chiro said she needed surgery for a 32 degree curve. LOL



    http://www.dancespirit.com/your-body...ings-straight/

    -------------

    At 1:44 is a picture of her back showing the curve. It is hard to eyeball but she appears to be highly rotated now and I am guessing the curve now is much larger than 32 degrees.

    http://www.wciu.com/videos/youandme/...ssional-dancer
    'One orthopedist suggested she undergo surgery. “But my dad wasn’t comfortable with that,” Fraser says. “We found a chiropracter who dealt specifically with dancers and scoliosis.'
    Clearly was a surgeon not a chiropractor who suggested surgery. Is exactly what they said in the Tv program.. it seems I'm the only one here feeling respect for ESPN. If she really had only 32º, it would not be honest what they did. Sure is full of cases like this with chiropractors, braces or nothing. It would be really very strange and suspicious, they even gave the name of the chiropractor.. is difficult to believe. If really a surgeon decided to go against the protocol, is not a reason to make a program about a girl not giving up and avoiding surgery.
    I think is more logic to believe that this article is wrong and 32º is what she has now after the treatment. In the video she seems to have even less degrees.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    I think is more logic to believe that this article is wrong and 32º is what she has now after the treatment. In the video she seems to have even less degrees.
    Wrong.

    "Paige Fraser, a company member with Visceral Dance Chicago in Chicago, IL, was diagnosed with a 32-degree curve when she was a freshman in high school."

    This is where she is not remembering correctly... "One orthopedist suggested she undergo surgery."

    Her and her family probably just heard the word "surgery" and assumed she needed it right away. They would not be the first to misunderstand out of fear and shock.

    It is hard to tell but it is a very good bet that her curve is much larger now than the 32 degrees when it was diagnosed in high school. It appears to be very rotated also. Because her shoulders are fairly even, I am guessing she has either a double major or false double.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    The only benefits to chiro that have ever been demonstrated are for pain relief in the lower back. But in that regard it is no better than PT. So the chiros are probably stealing whatever works withing PT and calling it chiro.
    Physical therapists don’t use thrusts or thrusting.

    My lower spine would get so tight, it would take several thrusts to get it to release. The pain relief would only come after the joint or joints released. One Chiropractor I used was a small guy. He would try, and try, only to set me into laughter, I would joke and say I need a heavier Chiropractor, or 2 at a time. They would also adjust my thoracic face up with knuckles under my spine. They would adjust all levels except my SI joints in which I had an Osteopath do with a leveraged leg motion. That removed 25 years of SI pain away immediately.

    I never believed the theories behind Chiropractic, wondering what a subluxation is, or the curing of many diseases. All I knew is that it works for pain and it also kept me from having surgery for many years. Stretching, pulling, and traction just wasn’t enough for me. I tried all of these techniques over many years....

    My surgeons and doctors did not specifically warn me to not use Chiropractic. I also wasn’t about to start taking medications. (Until I was diagnosed with 4 lumbar herniation’s in Jan 2002.) I then started with various NSAID’s. and using massage more often. That’s where I learned about the benefits of hot water.

    If I didn’t degenerate, I wouldn’t have had surgery. Degeneration can be a disaster in which only surgery can help.

    Ed
    49 yr old male, now 58, the new 53...
    Pre surgery curves C12,T70,L70
    ALIF/PLIF T2-Pelvis 01/29/08, 01/31/08 7" pelvic anchors BMP
    Dr Brett Menmuir St Marys Hospital Reno,Nevada

    Bending and twisting pics after full fusion
    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...on.&highlight=

    My x-rays
    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...2&d=1228779214

    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...3&d=1228779258

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by titaniumed View Post
    Degeneration can be a disaster in which only surgery can help.

    Ed
    Actually, this is wrong because my neck has been under control after the Medrol pack and Diclofenac. April 2013. I took the Diclofenac for 30 days and terminated except for one plane trip to South America.

    It would have been nice if meds could have handled my whole spine....but that wasn’t the case.

    Ed
    49 yr old male, now 58, the new 53...
    Pre surgery curves C12,T70,L70
    ALIF/PLIF T2-Pelvis 01/29/08, 01/31/08 7" pelvic anchors BMP
    Dr Brett Menmuir St Marys Hospital Reno,Nevada

    Bending and twisting pics after full fusion
    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...on.&highlight=

    My x-rays
    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...2&d=1228779214

    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...3&d=1228779258

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    I think you are correct about the benefits of stretching.

    Of course we need to point out here that stretching is a concept within the science of physiology as applied within the scientific field of physical therapy. The fact that some chiros may use stretching doesn't make it chiro and certainly doesn't make chiro science-based.

    The only benefits to chiro that have ever been demonstrated are for pain relief in the lower back. But in that regard it is no better than PT. So the chiros are probably stealing whatever works withing PT and calling it chiro.

    The central claim of chiro is subluxations of the spine. But these subluxations have been proven to be imaginary... no two chiros can point to the same spot on the radiograph as to where the subluxation exists. Unless chiros can demonstrate a treatment that they didn't steal from PT, it will remain a non-science.

    Sure we may say that PT stold very much from milenary practices like yoga. Streching of course exists since many thousands of years before the PT birth few years ago.
    An Indian practice is extremely similar to Chiropractic and was another very similar in Tibet.. probably more similar to the german Dhorn method. Now there is a revolutionary gymnastic The Hypopressive gymnastic of French, who seems to be too much similar to the bandhas of yoga.
    I think that same concepts are discovered again through ages and cultures.
    I really don't know which chiropractors can achieve flexibiliyt but some of them can. If this chiropractor is one of this, then it should to not surprise too much this ESPN story.
    Last edited by flerc; 09-11-2016 at 07:51 PM.

  9. #24
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    Chiropractic was founded in 1895 by Daniel David Palmer, a grocer with an intense interest in metaphysics.
    https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org...erview-part-i/
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Wrong.

    "Paige Fraser, a company member with Visceral Dance Chicago in Chicago, IL, was diagnosed with a 32-degree curve when she was a freshman in high school."

    This is where she is not remembering correctly... "One orthopedist suggested she undergo surgery."

    Her and her family probably just heard the word "surgery" and assumed she needed it right away. They would not be the first to misunderstand out of fear and shock.

    It is hard to tell but it is a very good bet that her curve is much larger now than the 32 degrees when it was diagnosed in high school. It appears to be very rotated also. Because her shoulders are fairly even, I am guessing she has either a double major or false double.
    Why are you so sure? Yes, is possible what you said, also is possible they wanted to say 42º instead of 32º.. also probably the orthopedic surgeon never said nothing about surgery and the father imagined all because he was too worried. Is difficult (only for me?) to believe but is also possible that ESPN don't tests nothing and trusts blindly in parents's stories about achievements of their sons going against what doctors says. If this is the case, we might see some miracle the next. But is also possible that they are not so irresponsibles and it was as they said and the surgeon who recommended surgery was not a criminal and had reasons to recommended it.
    It not proves nothing but I doubt too much this curve may be over 30º.. only 1 or 2 degrees more.
    Last edited by flerc; 09-11-2016 at 08:38 PM.

  11. #26
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    Probably this man may found similar inconsistences in Hipopresive gymnastic theory and then he may conclude that this gymnastic and then also Yoga is usleless.
    Last edited by flerc; 09-11-2016 at 09:07 PM.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    An Indian practice is extremely similar to Chiropractic and was another very similar in Tibet.. probably more similar to the german Dhorn method.
    Certainly Sohier is really similar to Chiropractic.. with very much solid concepts but is also vertebral manipulation..

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    Why are you so sure?
    We can never be sure. All we can do is reject things that don't make sense and suggest things that we see over and over and over again.

    The most likely scenario here BY FAR is that she was diagnosed with a 32 and she and her family misunderstood the surgeon.

    What I am less sure of is her progression. The spine appears highly rotated such that the prominent parts that face straight back disappear completely to the left. Also, we probably wouldn't notice a 32 in that photo. Curves have to get very large to be noticeable like that. I would bet she is north of 50 degrees and maybe north of 60 degrees in that photo.

    Your scenarios are not likely and come across as contrarian and you just reflexively disagreeing even in the face of overwhelming odds against what you are saying.

    The saying, "If it doesn't make sense then it probably isn't true" works for most people. But it doesn't work for you because your sense often does not match reality and you tend to be naive.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  14. #29
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    Flerc,
    To be fair I haven't read any other comments on this thread. I read the article and looked at her pictures.
    She obviously still has a significant deformity. Many people live with their scoliosis even though they are well above the surgical threshold. There is a woman in my town that has a significant s-curve that can be seen very distinctly and refuses surgery. I know that she refuses surgery because I know her mother.

    The woman in this article is one that chooses to live with it, too. According to the article, it appears that she is still using her brace as it stated, "13 years of ... bracing". I may be incorrect as that may just be thrown in there as one of her treatments. The HUGE factor in this is the fact that she is ultra athletic, especially with her back muscles. This probably acts to keep her from progressing at this point.

    The fact that she saw a chiropractor for treatment is irrelevant to me and probably irrelevant to her avoidance of surgery. The chiropractor is just one member of her self-made "team" that gives her support and advice on her body mechanics. That's probably the extent to which s/he has helped her. Undergoing spinal manipulations has never been shown to be effective in anything other than relieving pain. This, of course, could have helped her to continue on in her course but is certainly not a source of prevention or cure. Pain could have stopped her, so I will admit that the chiropractor may have helped in this aspect as well.

    The big question now is: What's going to happen when she quits active ballet?
    If she ever stops her vigorously active ballet exercises she will quite likely experience what most of us do ... a worsening of her scoliosis and the pain and disfigurement that goes with it.

    But, for now she works around it. They don't ask her to do moves that she physically can't do. She was very fortunate to find a ballet company that will work with her.

    It irks me a little bit that she frowns upon the term "disabled" so much. There are millions who are disabled that can't do anything about it. Just because she is able to work around her deformity and has a company the allows compensation for this doesn't mean that she's conquered it. Her statements seem to imply that others that are disabled are somehow at fault for not being strong enough to overcome their disability. There are varying degrees of disability. Her ballet company works around hers. She could have found herself in a company that wouldn't work around her disability. In that case she wouldn't have been employed very long. She's just very fortunate that she has a good and understanding employer. I'm happy she's been able to live her dream, but she's still very young and age is a game changer.

    Rohrer01
    Last edited by rohrer01; 09-12-2016 at 02:13 PM.
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    We can never be sure. All we can do is reject things that don't make sense and suggest things that we see over and over and over again.

    The most likely scenario here BY FAR is that she was diagnosed with a 32 and she and her family misunderstood the surgeon.

    What I am less sure of is her progression. The spine appears highly rotated such that the prominent parts that face straight back disappear completely to the left. Also, we probably wouldn't notice a 32 in that photo. Curves have to get very large to be noticeable like that. I would bet she is north of 50 degrees and maybe north of 60 degrees in that photo.

    Your scenarios are not likely and come across as contrarian and you just reflexively disagreeing even in the face of overwhelming odds against what you are saying.

    The saying, "If it doesn't make sense then it probably isn't true" works for most people. But it doesn't work for you because your sense often does not match reality and you tend to be naive.
    Wrong
    Of course is more logic to suppose that that article is wrong and not ESPN. Certainly in the article they are saying that a surgeon recommended surgery with 32º, something surely wong, the surgeon should to demanding them. What do you think need to be more serious, this article that you find and sure I'm the only one in my country reading it or a tv program that sure was seen for millons of persons around the world, not only in Argentina?
    Make it more simply, just only say that non surgical methods, specially chiropractic, cannot avoid a surgery and then everything you say would be a consequence.. even that ESPN team is irresponsible and really very much naive. It don't surprise you?
    I'm almost sure she is not over 30º. I perfectly know how a curve over 50º may looks, you know it.
    Last edited by flerc; 09-12-2016 at 02:41 PM.

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