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Thread: shoulder imbalance, pain in shoulder and some random q

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Here is my before and after of my twin girls.

    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...792#post135792

    I would say Thing 1 was hyper-corrected because she went from 58* down to no residual scoliosis. Her shoulders are even now but were uneven before surgery. She fretted a lot for several months until they came even.

    Thing 2 was not hyper-corrected and the surgeon left a residual curve. It is 20* there but increased a bit to abut 25* on her last x-ray. I think she had a false double curve which looks like two curves but the lower one bent out and so is only compensatory. I have read that you can't hyper-correct this type of T curve or else you will have a high left shoulder. Her shoulders are even because she was not hyper-corrected as far as I know. She would have had a high left shoulder had she been hyper-corrected as far as I know.
    You have taken good care of your children. congrats.

  2. #17
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    "
    So, what of the following is correct:

    "overcorrection " = correction so good that the curve now leans to the other side

    or

    overcorrection = corrects a thing at a greater cost for other imbalances

    ?


    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    The second one. I am not sure anyone is ever corrected past zero.
    Screen Shot 2016-10-10 at 8.49.19 PM.png
    open the image above

    By the way it is a screenshot taken from here:
    https://www.amazon.com/Scoliosis-Sou.../dp/1435295765

    It is a book that I intend to buy. If someone has a a .pdf please send it to me. I open a thread today called "book requests". post it there.

    Thanks in advance.
    Last edited by richardis; 10-10-2016 at 03:59 PM.

  3. #18
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    That definition in that screenshot is obviously correct. I was using the term incorrectly.

    I was thinking that no surgeon is going to fuse a person at minus degrees with respect to the original curve. Even hyper-corrected people probably all have a slight residual curve in the original direction.

    But overcorrection refers not to making the spine curve in the opposite direction but rather correcting too much such that the balance is off or the shoulder is high or whatever.


    Quote Originally Posted by richardis View Post
    "
    So, what of the following is correct:

    "overcorrection " = correction so good that the curve now leans to the other side

    or

    overcorrection = corrects a thing at a greater cost for other imbalances

    ?


    Screen Shot 2016-10-10 at 8.49.19 PM.png
    open the image above

    By the way it is a screenshot taken from here:
    https://www.amazon.com/Scoliosis-Sou.../dp/1435295765

    It is a book that I intend to buy. If someone has a a .pdf please send it to me. I open a thread today called "book requests". post it there.

    Thanks in advance.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  4. #19
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    I can mark this thread as "solved". The cause of my post surgery shoulder imbalance was discovered.

    This very recent and interesting scientific article ( august,2016) has solved it:
    http://dl.umsu.ac.ir/bitstream/Hanna...ust%20(12).pdf

    It is a must read. Read it carefully and do take some time to analyse it.

    spread this message to improve the outcome of your surgery.
    Unfortunately, I may have to deal with shoulder imbalance for life.

  5. #20
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    Well that seemed like some nice work in that article. I think it explains why the same surgeon hyper-corrected my one kid and did not hyper-correct the other. He specifically told us that he had to leave some curve in the one kid or else she would have a high left shoulder.

    I looked at both sets of radiographs for my kids. Their necks came vertical fairly quickly. Both were fused starting at T4 and both UIV look horizontal as far as I can tell.

    I can't find your radiographs. Is your UIV horizontal?
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  6. #21
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    Yes, my UIV is horizontal. but I assume my T2 has a residual degree of proximal scoliosis.

    I asked the hard questions to my surgeon and he kindly replied. I told him I knew he did the best he could and probably it was not possible to have a better outcome. Despite this, I went on and asked him the technical stuff.

    To summarize his response: he basically said that surgery is not like geometry or maths. He surely thinks I am the type of guy that believes that maths explains everything. In fact, I do . Unfortunately, it all boils down to math, proportions, shapes, and sizes. And I struggle a lot to understand advanced math and physics. It is beyond my comprehension but ultimately therein lies the answer.

    He also said:- You are not perfect.
    To which I replied: - No one is.
    The point being that no one who undergoes scoliosis surgery should expect a perfect shoulder balance. It is a 3D deformity, only a correction on the 3 planes will provide you a near-perfect symmetry. An don't forget the ribs. Any deformed rib will trigger shoulder asymmetry. At least when you are standing with your back against a chair.

    Also, in my opinion the degree and rotation of the curve should have a pain score - a quasi-scientific pain score . Scoliosis does indeed cause pain. It is about time to stop lying to patients. Scoliosis causes pain. Bridges with asymmetrical piers will deteriorate faster or need higher maintenance. A bird with asymmetrical wings will struggle to fly.

    Bodies with scoliosis are incredible feats of engineering. Defying the laws of physics comes at great cost to us all - pain- all those muscles work to counterbalance asymmetrical loads.

    But I started this to ask this:
    Does someone has more info on this?
    http://ada-posturologie.fr/Normalite-a.htm

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by richardis View Post
    Yes, my UIV is horizontal. but I assume my T2 has a residual degree of proximal scoliosis.
    If your UIV is horizontal, unless your proximal scoliosis is structural which I doubt, it will come vertical eventually just like my kid's lumbar came straight. What is preventing the proximal portion from coming vertical if the UIV is horizontal and the proximal curve is not structural? It may take some time... my daughter's shoulders came level only after several months.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  8. #23
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    If you insist that scoliosis causes pain, how do you explain that a relatively large percentage of scoliosis patients don't have pain. Even those with large curves.
    Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Dilbert
    I'm sarcastic... what's your super power? --Unknown
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    Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
    Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by LindaRacine View Post
    If you insist that scoliosis causes pain, how do you explain that a relatively large percentage of scoliosis patients don't have pain. Even those with large curves.
    My answer to that: have they ever known a life without scoliosis? they assume that pain is normal.
    Plus, being straight is certainly more comfortable than the opposite.

    Now look at this pic https://static.spineuniverse.com/sit...linicals-0.jpg
    Do you even feel the need to ask her if she struggles to do the activities of her daily life? Do you believe her if she says she is pain-free? She is being kind to you as someone who tells his/her child everything is OK just to calm them.

    And it is common practice to teach doctors that certain things they will do to you won't cause any pain.
    For example, after my surgery several things were done. I asked: - Will this hurt?
    his or her answer: This won't hurt a bit.

    It turned out painful


    But I want to me the conversation to this:
    Does someone has more info on this?
    http://ada-posturologie.fr/Normalite-a.htm
    Last edited by richardis; 12-06-2016 at 07:19 AM.

  10. #25
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    https://static01.nyt.com/images/2013...magArticle.jpg look at this pic. your back is always working harder than non-scoliotic backs

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by richardis View Post
    My answer to that: have they ever known a life without scoliosis? they assume that pain is normal.
    This is clearly wrong with respect to my kids. The reason their backs got so bad before being diagnosed was because they didn't have any pain between when their back was straight and when a large curve developed. Only my one daughter whose curve moved at 5 degrees a month complained of some pain at the end. I suspect her muscles couldn't adjust to that rate of change in the curve. That is the fastest rate I have ever seen posted by anyone on this forum so I assume it is very atypical. Her sister whose curve moved more slowly didn't have pain even right before surgery if I recall correctly. Her curve was high 50s.

    There are many adults who never realize they have scoliosis because they don't have pain. There are people ON THIS FORUM with very large curves who have no pain but are fused to stop progression.

    Also, the vast majority of people will have back pain bad enough in their life that it drives them to a doctor. So the percentage of people with scoliosis who have pain seems similar to that for the general population.

    This issue of pain with back issues was discussed on doctor radio yesterday. They had a surgeon who used to do these small fusions for back pain so not scoliosis. He stopped dong them because most patients didn't improve. He concluded the pain must be coming from soft tissue for those patients and not the disc/nerve. Herniated discs clearly have pain from a compressed nerve so that is different. I have had two of those and the pain down the buttock is instantaneous and is nothing like a muscle pull.

    So anyway, this surgeon says cognitive behavior therapy (CBT) is better than surgery because that can interrupt the pain sensation at the brain if I understand him correctly. He also said that chronic pain is different than acute pain. Chronic pain is a learned response in the brain that won't go away by any physical treatment but must be addressed by CBT.
    Last edited by Pooka1; 12-06-2016 at 08:41 AM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  12. #27
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    The correct way to say it is that there are things about scoliosis that can cause back pain, but back pain is definitely not normal in kids. Pain is relatively common in adults with scoliosis, but it's also relatively common in adults without scoliosis.
    Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Dilbert
    I'm sarcastic... what's your super power? --Unknown
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
    Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    If you've signed up and are having trouble posting, please check your spam folder. An email was sent to the email address which you subscribed. You have to follow the instructions in that email. Done that and still having trouble posting? Contact Joe O'Brien at jpobrien@scoliosis.org.

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