Fantastic reductions in brace!

[Pooka1]

They don't know about civilization from Tibet and South America.

What is the evidence that Palmer "rediscovered" chiro from Tibet and South America? Why do you keep claiming that?

I seriously doubt they did spinal manipulations in response to "subluxations."

[flerc]

This is not a Chiropractor thread, if you are not interested in reduction in brace, ok, you may continue here talking about Chiropractic

Come to South America and you may see it. Folks practicing Inca Chiropractic sure have never heard about Palmer..

[Pooka1]

In Katz et al. (2010), bracing "success" was not correlated with in-brace correction amount.

In another paper by Katz et al., it was correlated.

The results are all over the place just from this one group.

[flerc]

I'm sure I have read about Mayo Clinic with a very good correlation. It would be very hard to imagine success correlated with low reduction in brace. Regardless Physics, Maths and Biology facts, is something too much intuitive I think to see why reduction in brace is important and why without it braces should not be used.

[Pooka1]

There could be thresholds of efficacy. It may be overkill to go for more correction (and more discomfort).

It may be largely dependent on the patient and not so much the amount of correction. It may be how much the brace kyphoses the spine instead of amount of correction in the coronal plane. Who knows.

You should accept that what is intuitive to a lay person may have no bearing on scientific reality. That's why there is so much folk science.

[flerc]

I didn't said it would be only intuitive, of course there are logics reasons according to science. Yes, it could be more discomfort if reduction is forced in spine without flexibility. But why not get first flexibility and then look for a brace?

[Pooka1]

I'm sure I have read about Mayo Clinic with a very good correlation.

What is your point? Does this matter to anything?

I am trying to get you to see that this doesn't move the needle one way or another.

Lay people read random things all the time. So what?

[Pooka1]

But why not get first flexibility and then look for a brace?

Do you imagine the researchers need lay people to make suggestions for how to advance this research field?

Don't you think the researchers are MILES ahead of all the lay people combined?

Here a real issue for you... why hasn't Dingo updated the group this year about his son's results with torso rotation? I hope they are okay.

[flerc]

What means lay people for you?

[Pooka1]

What means lay people for you?

People not trained in this field. Unlettered people. You and me and Dingo and everyone here except Dr. McIntire.

[flerc]

Ok, all here except Kevin are lay people. But you think that non surgical methods are not useful, braces should to be discontinued, although not lay people may be thinking different, so why I cannot say what I think about reduction in brace?

[Pooka1]

My thoughts are based on the level of evidence which I can ascertain from reading high-quality sources. I have no independent conclusions because this is not my field.

Your comments are not based on anything except your feelings. No science involved.

You can say anything you want and Dingo can say anything he wants. But it's all folk science by definition.

[flerc]

What I say is based over facts, is not my imagination. Is a logical conclusion and if there is something showing something wrong, as I know was never posted. Certainly there are researchers saying the same. And certainly surgeons, chiropractors, orthopedics are not researchers.

[flerc]

So why it has not sense to say that something is done in the wrong way? I sure that using a brace without enough reduction in brace is something wrong and I say why.

[Pooka1]

What I say is based over facts,

AS YOU UNDERSTAND them. That is not the same as an understanding you get from being in this field.

The hallmark of research is to be skeptical and to doubt until the evidence is overwhelming. Lay people DO NOT do that... they cherry pick individual articles that they really don't understand and make statements of "fact."

I see you and Dingo practicing research without a license. You have no training and so don't know to be skeptical enough. You don't know what you don't know and don't accept that there are unknown unknowns at all. Both you and Dingo could come up to speed but you haven't. I am very sure you have no idea what it takes to get to a point where Dr. McIntire is with his doctorate and post doc. You could be at the same point if you learned how to approach science but neither of you have done so. I know what I had to do to earn a doctorate and get through a post doc. I have not done anything close to that in the field of scoliosis. I use the general tools of science and research to poke around a bit but that is all it is... a lay jaunt through another field of science that is not my own.

My training in research has taught me to very extremely skeptical of everything. The answer to many things is there is not enough evidence to say one way or another. For something like bracing or PT, it is so complex that we may never get an answer about the long term effectiveness.