Does anyone know anything about this?

[Pooka1]

I understood what you meant. However, math logic was brought up. We have to remember not to let emotion get the better of anyone whether they spout nonsense or not. I think your second comment made it more clear. I think Flerc is determined to find a non-surgical method for successfully treating scoliosis. If he does, a lot of people will applaud him.

But I think the, "you are a bad person", statement will get this thread closed when Linda gets up and sees it. You don't seem to be a bad person to me. You could have quit this forum YEARS ago. Yet, you persist. Your girls are grown and in college. Thanks for sticking around!

I reported the post. Flerc is past the point of contributing anything of value. He admitted he is sure of things that are demonstrably false. That should give him pause. I hope he is banned until he can post rationally.

[flerc]

I reported the post. Flerc is past the point of contributing anything of value. He admitted he is sure of things that are demonstrably false.

When? Where? Quote it instead of give your pseudo rational interpretation!

[flerc]

I meant there are no proven treatments now that we know of.

Proven treatments and treatments working is not the same. You filled non surgical sections saying that there is no any surgical treatment that works and of course you never gave a rational demonstration about such kind of claims. It should not be allowed to write categorical claims without justifying them as you are doing here since many years ago! It's not ethical of course!

[rohrer01]

Yes, it's a fact, we are playing two entirely different games since I'm here because I need to solve a complex problem, not to convince anyone about nothing I have not time to sterile discussions, unavoidable among people with different purpose and different kind of thinking. For people with a mathematical thinking is impossible to accept the adapted terminology and concepts in order to conform a dogmatic vision trying to show the medical protocol as the only one choice. Science has nothing to do with this. You say that there is no evidence that non surgical treatments works. How can you know it? Evidence means proof, which is the proof you may show about it? It would be different if you would be saying that there is no evidence showing that non surgical treatments don't work, we may agree about the logic behind that claim, but you use a deformed definition about what evidence means. It took me some years to understand that kind of thinking, not really logical thinking and followed by most physicians (fortunately not all). I should need to born again to don't refuse this way to analyze problems, I can think by myself in a rational way.
If you would have enough background in hard sciences you would have a mathematical thinking and if you had ever led a complex Project in your life, you would understand what solve a problem really means and then you realize that a problem so complex as having scoliosis is does not admit a so simple vision as you are promoting here.

Evidence does not mean proof. Proof is fact. (bold mine) If you had mathematical thinking you would know this.
In a court of law, both sides submit "evidence". There can be evidence that leads to proof if compounded with more evidence that makes a thing undeniable. In science you can have a thing with lots of "evidence" that can not be reproduced. That is a theory. If it can be reproduced time and time again, then it becomes proof or fact.

Unfortunately with scoliosis, no two cases are identical. Even surgery doesn't cure scoliosis. It is the most effective treatment that we have thus far to stop progression, straighten the spine (usually not entirely) and stabilize it. But, as you know, carries great risks. Some people are so far gone that they don't have a choice with the medical knowledge that we have now. Do you suggest that they try all of your ideas as their curves progress and are slowly dying?

I fully support the search for "alternative to surgery" treatments to halt and/or reduce and/or correct scoliosis. It's just the best we have for now are forms of PT, bracing and surgery. If an "alternative to surgery" treatment is found that works better than surgery it will be used mainstream and surgery will become obsolete.

[flerc]

Evidence does not mean proof. Proof is fact. (bold mine) If you had mathematical thinking you would know this.

It's a matter of definitions, not of reasonings, if you had mathematical thinking you would know this. Anyway in Spanish are used indistinctly both terms. And certainly (at least in Spanish) a fact is something true regardless if someone may see it or not, an evidence should to be known (evident) for someone. A demonstration would be a proof, an evidence for people able to understand it and it would be showing a fact, something true. Rigorous definitions may say something different, certainly I don't use to use the term 'evidence', is more used by lawyers, people more propense to have other kind of thinking, but probably it is different according to the countries, I'm not sure.

Do you suggest that they try all of your ideas as their curves progress and are slowly dying?

I'm not insane, at least not enough to suggest that. Don't insult me please.

[Pooka1]

I don't think anyone here is insane.

I think some otherwise rational parents appear to have been driven COMPLETELY around the bend by the scoliosis diagnosis in their child.

Parents with no science training throw themselves into this complex area of science/medicine and pretend to be researchers. This seems insane but is just an irrational reaction to a serious problem. I would bet my bank account that these people would NEVER have done that before their child's diagnosis. They are around the bend. I think it is a muted form of faith healing. A lay person who doesn't put in the years of actual training (not google!) to come up to speed is just doing faith, not science. A 5 minute google search is just as ineffectual as prayer.

Flerc is working entirely on emotion and faith and that isn't going to help anyone. Only evidence and science are going to move this ball down the court.

[Pooka1]

http://ncse.com/evolution/education/...cientific-work

Science uses specialized terms that have different meanings than everyday usage. These definitions correspond to the way scientists typically use these terms in the context of their work. Note, especially, that the meaning of “theory” in science is different than the meaning of “theory” in everyday conversation.

Fact: In science, an observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and for all practical purposes is accepted as “true.” Truth in science, however, is never final and what is accepted as a fact today may be modified or even discarded tomorrow.

Hypothesis: A tentative statement about the natural world leading to deductions that can be tested. If the deductions are verified, the hypothesis is provisionally corroborated. If the deductions are incorrect, the original hypothesis is proved false and must be abandoned or modified. Hypotheses can be used to build more complex inferences and explanations.

Law: A descriptive generalization about how some aspect of the natural world behaves under stated circumstances.

Theory: In science, a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses.

Source
The Role of Theory in Advancing 21st Century Biology, National Academy of Sciences

[Pooka1]

Anyway in Spanish are used indistinctly both terms.

The terms are used interchangeably by lay people such as yourself. They are NOT used interchangeably by Spanish scientists. Do not insult them.

[Pooka1]

This is how bizarre the situation is... lay people taking being labeled as lay people as an insult rather than a brute fact.

In a normal world, lay people accept the fact that they are lay people. It is no insult. It is just a statement on the lack of training they have received in one particular area. They are probably expert in other areas.

In this foreign scoliosis world, some parents think pointing out the obvious fact that they are lay people when it comes to scoliosis, medicine, science, the scientific methods, definition of science words, critical thinking, hypothesis testing, evidence, statistics, math, etc. etc. etc. is to somehow undermine their efforts to help their child.

The way people talk about these terms reveals their level of training. I don't think some parents appreciate this. What you say is hopelessly undermined by how you say it.

It is obvious not just what she says but HOW Rohrer talks that she has had science training. It is equally obvious from how Flerc talks that he has not had science training.

We have had parents on here in the past who if they weren't actively pretending to be medical researchers in the field of scoliosis etiology that they were failing their child. That is what it seemed like.

Being called a lay person when you are in fact a lay person is NOT an insult! That is NOT rational. That is around the bend. Hello????

[flerc]

The terms are used interchangeably by lay people such as yourself. They are NOT used interchangeably by Spanish scientists. Do not insult them.

Show me a Spanish spoken mathematician talking about evidence. Anyway as I said is a matter of language definitions not about reasoning, but for someone showing to have a pseudo rational (is much to say) thinking, that difference will always be a mystery.

[flerc]

Of course what should to be important for you is to quote a post where I used this term in wrong way. You cannot, but I can quote THOUSANDS of your post using it in a wrong way or simply denoting your extreme pseudo rational thinking and non ethical behaviour. You know that!

[rohrer01]

It's a matter of definitions, not of reasonings, if you had mathematical thinking you would know this. Anyway in Spanish are used indistinctly both terms. And certainly (at least in Spanish) a fact is something true regardless if someone may see it or not, an evidence should to be known (evident) for someone. A demonstration would be a proof, an evidence for people able to understand it and it would be showing a fact, something true. Rigorous definitions may say something different, certainly I don't use to use the term 'evidence', is more used by lawyers, people more propense to have other kind of thinking, but probably it is different according to the countries, I'm not sure.

I'm not insane, at least not enough to suggest that. Don't insult me please.

Excuse me, but I give definitions and then examples to show the misuse of them. I, in no way insulted you by saying that. What would you do if your daughter had a 120^o curve? Would you still resort to looking for a non-surgical method of treating her? THAT would be insane and that appears to be what you are suggesting. You are admittedly anti-surgery, as we would ALL like to be. But there are times that surgery has to be the last resort. Some people choose it earlier to avoid a more risky surgical procedure. Surgery does NOT cure scoliosis. There is no "cure". I actually complimented you for your rigorous search for non-surgical for non-surgical approaches. I defended you when Sharon, in the heat of emotion, used a term incorrectly when I knew what point she was trying to make. I did it because you were nit-picking (picking on small things such as whether a person has a mathematical mind) her ideas. That is the ONLY reason I said something. So no, I wasn't insulting you by asking that question. Now you are claiming a language barrier. Maybe it is. But do you really think all of this picking and accusing is accomplishing anything? This is likely the reason that you were kicked off of other forums.

So at what point would you let your daughter have surgery, 50^o's (no, because she's already surpassed that), 60^o's, 70^o, 80^o's, 100^o's, 120^o's? This disease creeps up on it's victims while they keep trying other things to avoid surgery. I'm not a surgery advocator unless it's the last option. When it becomes obvious that these other alternatives aren't working, tell me what other choices are there? I honestly want to know your answer on that. So I am not inferring that you are insane or insulting you by that comment.

I have a 46^ocurve that has displaced and deformed my heart, lungs, and stomach and is causing my aorta and esophageal sphincter to collide putting pressure on both. Granted, I have a very unusual curve. But you don't know what your daughter's curve is doing to her organs. For me, this could have all been avoided if my mother had consented to let me have surgery when I was 16 years old and my curve was in the upper 30's.

Some people can get away with very large curves and some can not. Back then "alternative" treatments were all there was except surgery in the medical community. Things have come a LONG way since then. I was subjected to so many things by the mainstream medical community that when I turned 18 I just tried to forget about it and live my life. I know your daughter has aged out and no longer has to be subjected to your alternative treatments. If she chooses or has chosen to have surgery there's absolutely nothing you can do about it now. If her curve/s continue to progress wouldn't it have been more humane to have had her get surgery when she was younger and the risks of complications SO much lower?

So, if you can't honestly answer that question I posed to you, this conversation is unproductive and should be stopped.

[flerc]

Excuse me, but I give definitions and then examples to show the misuse of them.

I suppose you are accepting it was in any case a matter of definitions and not about rigorous thinking or not, as you said first. Anyway, I would not say I was really using wrong definitions. In the CONTEXT I was talking, I was saying that an evidence is a proof and I cannot say it is wrong.
At least in some contexts in some countries I may say is not used as you said. Showing the body he said: Here is the evidence/proof necessary to show that her husband is dead. Is something showing a fact, that is, something that is true. It seems that for you 'proof' is only a demonstration. For me a proof prove that something is a fact, but of course is not the fact. In Maths we don't talk about evidence, even not about facts, we talk about demonstrations (proofs), and right sentences.

About the insult believing I could let someone die you are repeating it again 'THAT would be insane and that appears to be what you are suggesting.' Believe me I'm not responding an agression, but I really don't understand the way you use to arrive to conclusions. What could have I said leading you to say that?. It seems you interpret in a similar what I say that your friend Pooka1.. believe me I'm again not wanting to respond to any agression saying this.
I respond with this:

Is very difficult for me to believe in a reduction close to 25% in such super giant curve.. the lack of x-ray does it more difficult. But anyway if the prognosis from people treating her is so bad that not believe she may live more than only some few years more, that treatment is not useful. Nobody should to prevent her to visit a surgeon.

I could not really say I'm anti-surgery, I never admitted it as you are saying, otherwise I would have never said that. In any case I'm anti non satisfactory solutions if satisfactory solutions exists. The war against pro surgical and anti surgical is an inventions of your lovely friend Pooka1, I have never had nothing to do with it. For me surgical or nonsurgical are different kind of solutions and everyone should try to find the best, of course when there is time to do it. I'm personally friend of mothers who decided surgery for her daughters, I have a lot of friends in groups and forum who had surgery, only a sick or perverse mind may imagine such kind of ridiculous and evil war. I don't see fusion as a good solution, I see it as an old solution and I'm sure that everyone must to try with something else before decide it, but I don't say ignorant, desperates, lay people, and nothing similar to people decided to surgery as your friend says to people trying something different. Certainly I don't understand how may like you someone doing all these. Believe me, I could do in the surgical sections what she does here, but fortunately I'm not forced to do something so perverse, sick and evil.

I can answer honestly any question, if I want to do it or not depends on many variables, not only the kind of question.
My daughter fortunately I can say she is really fine, with a real normal life although her curve, that according x- rays is almost the same in 7 years. I perfectly know how to measure x-rays, anyway is always the same surgeon who write the degrees. 57º 7 years ago, 55º last year.
Of course I think all these years in all what you are saying, so I'm looking for something else. I was not who recommended her to do what she is doing and she is not doing nothing of all what I think she must to also does. Nobody wants to hear me talking about scoliosis, I was extremely close to the divorce because it.. I remain.

I understand what you say but I'm not sure it could be deterministic. When I have heard about scoliosis for first time and I was destroyed and evaluating the possibility of surgery, my sister asked me if I was crazy. Three of her best friends are on or over 50º and all have perfectly normal lives, they are around 70 y.o. and I know them since I was a kid or a teen and I have never heard about scoliosis until I knew about my daughter. One of them have 80º, I could not believe it when my sister said me. I owe her my decision of refuse surgery. She is incredible fine, I decide to not insist her any more to enter to forums to share her case , she doesn't want to see forums and nothing about scoliosis and not because any problem with Internet, she is a scientist working every day in her computer but it really seems she doesn't think in her scoliosis.

My daughter had an accident some months ago, she fell down in the bathroom. I don't know and I don't want to imagine what could do such hit to someone who had surgery. Fortunately only her knee was damaged, I'm very worry but Doctors are saying it's not too serious and she is in treating.
I'm who is not fine, all the day thinking in scoliosis and now in her knee.. but certainly I'm not sure, because I have an Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and if I would not be obsessed with scoliosis I would be obsessed with something else.

If you are absolutely sure that your curve is causing all what you say and is really very harmful and affecting too much your life, you should to consider to reduce your curve and run the risks. I don't remember what you said me when I suggested you Spinecor for adults. Other option would be try with Side Plank, who know? It seems to be evidence that it works in some cases. Schroth and SEAS even there are some evidence (at least about SEAS) of reduction in adults, surely the possibility of achieve a significant reduction is very low, so before thinking in fusion, you should to know if Vbt could be work in your curve, probably not, but I don't know.

[flerc]

Anyway, I would not say I was really using wrong definitions. In the CONTEXT I was talking, I was saying that an evidence is a proof and I cannot say it is wrong.

I was right.
prueba (proof)
nombre femenino
1.
Cosa material, hecho, suceso, razón o argumento con que se prueba o se intenta probar que algo es de una determinada manera y no de otra.
Since an evidence shows that something is true, it prove it, then is a proof.

[rohrer01]

Flerc,
I will address a few things in your post.
1. I'm very glad that your daughter is doing well and has moved on with her life without obsessing about her scoliosis. I did the same thing when I turned 18. I was put through so many exercises, traction, electrical stimulation, shoe lifts, etc. I was sick of it all. Whatever your daughter is doing is keeping her stable for seven years with a 50+ degree curve. That is great! I'm sorry to hear that she fell. I have heard that the fused part of the spine is very strong, stronger than the non-fused spine. With that in mind, her back would have probably been fine with her fall unless she hurt the non-fused portion. I am not fused and have been hurt very badly from falls.

2. I'm not familiar with VBt. I've read about VBS and tethering, both of which are for growing youngsters and are still surgery.

3. I have never met Pooka1, therefore I can't call her my "friend" as you say. We disagree on some very major things but still manage to get along quite well. You can agree to disagree and still be nice to people. I don't have what you think is an agenda to lead people to surgery. My agenda is to learn options of treating scoliosis. I learned that there are things that can be done such as VBT and tethering while a child is growing. I never knew that. Had I not come here, I would have never known that. I have learned that in certain cases, PT can help alleviate the pain of scoliosis and help increase breath volume. There are many things I've learned here. Unfortunately, I haven't learned anything that can help my weird and untouchable curve that no one has ever seen before. So, no, I don't have what you think Pooka1's agenda is to lead everyone to the operating table. Even she tried bracing in one of her girls. She became disillusioned with bracing when it did nothing to keep her daughter off of the operating table. I believe that is why she attacks the statistics about the efficacy of bracing long term. But, I do know that if someone I know has a child with scoliosis that I can direct them to less invasive and dangerous techniques as fusion. But fusion is necessary sometimes. I actually got reprimanded on the surgical forum for posting a paper on the complications and mortality rates of fusion. So do you call that a surgical agenda?

4. Maybe in YOUR language "evidence" means proof. In English it does not. If someone were to tell me that there was evidence that my loved one is dead, I would not accept that as proof especially if they were on life-support. The doctor would have to show me evidence that there was absolutely no brain activity and they could not breathe on their own to prove to me they are dead. Of course, if they were cold, blue, stiff, and not breathing and had no heartbeat, that would be enough evidence to show me they were dead. There is still evidence and proof which is fact. There was "evidence" that was accepted for a long time that showed that maggots and flies came from rotting things. Someone challenged that evidence by putting a cloth over a jar of rotting meat where the flies lay their eggs and maggots appeared no, not from the meat but from the flies. That experiment disproved "evidence" that there was spontaneous generation. In mathematics logic is used to prove statements and equations. Example: The water is polluted and green. A=polluted water and B=green water. In this case A==>B but B=\=>A because not all green water is polluted, which is what B to A infers. The evidence is that the green water is polluted which is true in this case but not true in all cases of green water.

5. These arguments are petty and unproductive. They don't help anyone looking for scoliosis help. Your original post was a bunch of chiropractic stuff that they call "Boot Camp". There have been people on here complaining of this treatment. So what has this thread contributed? Nothing but arguing. The "Boot Camp" is discussed in other threads. Please quit picking fights and saying mean things about people, including me. At least you admit your OCD behavior. That is a step in the right direction. Please redirect it in actually doing research and not fighting on forums. Offer what you find and leave it alone, please.