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  • #61
    I don't think either of you were being racist here- I think it is difficult to portray sarcasm and irony in a post.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by burdle View Post
      I don't think either of you were being racist here- I think it is difficult to portray sarcasm and irony in a post.
      Hi Burdle.

      I am criticizing ideas, not ethnicities.

      Flerc can't see this because he reducing everything to ethnicities. We don't need people thinking in terms of ethnicities in this world. We need people willing to criticize bad ideas from anyone and everyone. And we certainly don't need people protecting bad ideas by falsely accusing others of being racists.

      He needs to go. I hope he is banned. He contributes nothing of value.
      Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

      No island of sanity.

      Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
      Answer: Medicine


      "We are all African."

      Comment


      • #63
        An an example, I routinely criticize bullfighting as being barbarism. Flerc would say I was criticizing Spaniards. He is either being dishonest or ignorant. There is no third choice.

        I consider only ideas. He considers only ethnicities.
        Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

        No island of sanity.

        Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
        Answer: Medicine


        "We are all African."

        Comment


        • #64
          Burdle, it would be good to see her quoting just only one evidence about all what she don't stop to says about me since many years ago. She never said nothing true.. even in her last post. Nobody may hate bullfighting more than me and I have friends in Spain, my sister living there since decades ago, also I have Spain blood running in my veins.. and I wish too see the entire world criticizing bullfighting. But if you never stop to saying that everything not emerging from science is a not sense, you are offending cultures, millions of people around the world.
          Last edited by flerc; 01-25-2016, 10:15 AM.

          Comment


          • #65
            If someone wants to criticize anything wrong about any culture or country even mine, I'll aplaude it, but must to shows that effectively is something wrong or bad. To don't emerge from science don't proves absolutely NOTHING!
            Last edited by flerc; 01-25-2016, 08:58 AM.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by flerc View Post
              You said that ancient people didn't know anything or I have understand you wrong? Of course you couldn't refers to Europe ancient folks! I suppose you have enough history knowledge to know about greek culture where the mother of science began, don't you? You said chinese medicine is a non sense.. I just only did comments about what you said.
              You guys are still at it? For one thing, many of the so-called non-scientific methods of treatment DO eventually get scientific explanations as to how they work. I was skeptical about acupuncture and got the whole Chi and Meridian lecture. I let it roll in one ear and out of the other. I knew IF it worked there would be a real explanation. It DID work in my case (severe lower back muscle spasms) after two treatments. I haven't had to go back. But those needles had electrical current running through them. They were hooked up to a TENS unit. I looked it up in scientific journals and got different explanations than Chi and Meridians. Meridians don't exist. There is no connection to be found in the body or nervous system that run in those pathways.

              Now Flerc, how do you know that Sharon is of European descent? Did she ever state that? The only reason people may "assume" I'm white is because I have stated that I have lineage back to Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormon Church, who was white. I am in fact quite a bit Cherokee, Southern Native American!(and a bunch of other things - so no one on here really knows what color I am) While I don't believe in "medicine men", many of their remedies have been found to have scientific benefits, like Willow bark, aka aspirin. I think the point is to take what is reproducibly beneficial and find out what it does using the scientific method. Every race and culture contributes something. We are all people. Don't make assumptions about people's heredity unless they have told you what it is. You can't base science on heritage.

              Flerc, I'm re-reading your posts and getting something different out of it every time. The Greeks had some of the most ridiculous "scientific" beliefs, ever! Remember the four humors? That started there, I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong. Yes, a lot of advancement was made there, but advancements were made in many places. It doesn't matter where an anthropologist goes, they find incredulous belief systems. I think Sharon is trying to convey the thought of taking the good and provable out of the non-sense and is getting frustrated with arguing with you. I'll keep my nose out since I didn't even read the beginning of the thread, which I'm sure has nothing to do with this particular conversation anyway. Things tend to digress. There are a few of us that try to explain both sides but we get slapped down for trying. Take what I said for what it's worth.
              Last edited by rohrer01; 01-25-2016, 12:48 PM.
              Be happy!
              We don't know what tomorrow brings,
              but we are alive today!

              Comment


              • #67
                Some pertinent reading material....

                Spinal manipulation goes way way back.....per this article, thousands of years.....
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinal_manipulation

                Chiropractic.....1895 Palmer...

                Includes the attempts of the elimination of Chiropractic, and the resulting lawsuit....
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_chiropractic

                Trick or treatment....Ed Ernst.
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edzard_Ernst


                My plea is simply for honesty. Let people buy what they want, but tell them the truth about what they are buying. These treatments are biologically implausible and the clinical tests have shown they don't do anything at all in human beings. The argument that this information is not relevant or important for customers is quite simply ridiculous.[1


                For us, there is no such thing as alternative medicine. There is either medicine that is effective or not, medicine that is safe or not. So-called alternative therapies need to be assessed and then classified as good medicines or bogus medicines. Hopefully, in the future, the good medicines will be embraced within conventional medicine and the bogus medicines will be abandoned.

                After more than 200 years, we are still waiting for homeopathy "heretics" to be proved right, during which time the advances in our understanding of disease, progress in therapeutics and surgery, and prolongation of the length and quality of life by so-called allopaths have been breathtaking. The true skeptic therefore takes pride in closed mindedness when presented with absurd assertions that contravene the laws of thermodynamics or deny progress in all branches of physics, chemistry, physiology, and medicine.[21]


                I’ve done Chiropractic and I’ve taken blacklisted medications.....both sides of the coin

                Ed Ernst says, tell them the truth.....that’s all we want.

                Ed
                49 yr old male, now 63, the new 64...
                Pre surgery curves T70,L70
                ALIF/PSA T2-Pelvis 01/29/08, 01/31/08 7" pelvic anchors BMP
                Dr Brett Menmuir St Marys Hospital Reno,Nevada

                Bending and twisting pics after full fusion
                http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...on.&highlight=

                My x-rays
                http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...2&d=1228779214

                http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...3&d=1228779258

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by titaniumed View Post
                  After more than 200 years, we are still waiting for homeopathy "heretics" to be proved right, during which time the advances in our understanding of disease, progress in therapeutics and surgery, and prolongation of the length and quality of life by so-called allopaths have been breathtaking. The true skeptic therefore takes pride in closed mindedness when presented with absurd assertions that contravene the laws of thermodynamics or deny progress in all branches of physics, chemistry, physiology, and medicine.[21]
                  Ti Ed is wise.

                  Be like Ti Ed.
                  Last edited by Pooka1; 01-25-2016, 06:52 PM.
                  Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                  No island of sanity.

                  Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                  Answer: Medicine


                  "We are all African."

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Everyone may think what they wants, but if I'm talking about Tibet and South America Indian folks inventing something considered pure junk here and I read 'Ancient people didn't know anything and it shows.' and then those comments specially about Qigong and coincidently the person saying this is someone who only believes in what emerges from science as is showing since many years ago in thousands of posts disqualifying in the worse way everything and everyone, I think I cannot be wrong understanding that this person believes that only European folks related with greek folks was the only ones developing something useful, certainly the only one useful of mankind, that is, science. Impossible to believe this person never heard about Hipocrates or Pitagoras..
                    And of course, what could think this person about people still using those unusful inventions of those folks? Chinese Medicine is used in China of course and surely more than in ever other country. Yes, I was ironic saying she believes Chinese is not a clever people, of course nobdy may think that but certainly I have never known about nobody else using irony and all the disqualifying resource as she ever uses in discussion with people defending alternative methods.
                    Everyone with a minimally understanding of science and logics cannot ignore that a counterexample is enough to prove that something is wrong. I only may mention the Pope Francis because he is famous, but again, everyone may thinks what they wants, but of course I have blood in my veins and I cannot accept such kind of unfair disqualyifing claims.
                    I cannot contine with this kind of discussion because two reasons: The first is that I'm here because I have a serious problem and this doesn't bring absolutely nothing useful in order to solve this problem. The second and even more important is that is happening what ever happens when I discuss with her and I know how this may finish if I don't stop and although this is now mainly a surgical forum, being to much hard to find something about non surgical options, is the biggest scoliosis forum around the world and something useful I ever find here, even she responded the question I did in this thread, something useful for me. I also met good people searching the same that me. So even knowing that she will never stop, anyway I don't want to be banned, I must to accept all of this, I'm the last surveyvoir here and I'm not talking about racism, in fact I never did it, but racism is not the only one reason leading people to attacks others, in this case the reason is to believe in non surgical treatments as I do.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by titaniumed View Post

                      For us, there is no such thing as alternative medicine. There is either medicine that is effective or not, medicine that is safe or not. So-called alternative therapies need to be assessed and then classified as good medicines or bogus medicines. Hopefully, in the future, the good medicines will be embraced within conventional medicine and the bogus medicines will be abandoned.

                      Ed
                      Exactly what I was trying to convey, but more concise. Take the things that seem to be working from whatever culture or ritual they may come from. Test them with the scientific method to see that they really do work. Then find out how and/or why they work. Quit calling it by its original name and quit trying to sell it as an ancient ritualistic healing. It's okay to say this treatment or that dates back thousands of years, but the people didn't understand why it worked. Not preaching religion here, but look at the Levitical laws of hygiene and laws against bestiality and incest. Those people had no knowledge of bacterial or viral infections or hereditary diseases. But it worked and now we know why. It took thousands of years to gain this understanding. The same goes with forms of healing. The Chinese have been practicing acupuncture for thousands of years and it works in certain circumstances, but not on everything. There is actual literature on WHY it works, even without the TENS or ENS stimulation. No meridian hypothesis. Some forms of Yoga work to help pain. Get rid of the religious aspect of it, quit the chanting, do the exercises that have been proven to work, quit calling it Yoga (bad connotation for some people) and call the exercises PT which is really what they are. I could go on and on. No offense to you Flerc because you are looking for the things that work. There's nothing wrong with that. It's the belief by some that people buy into the nonsense that goes with the treatments. That's where the scientific method comes in and the quackery goes out. Still not concise!

                      DONE
                      Be happy!
                      We don't know what tomorrow brings,
                      but we are alive today!

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        I had a post in another thread that has since been closed- my post was not really part of the raging argument- but just made a comment about support. For the record I am the FIRST person who wants to lay into these people who are making a fortune out of pretending they have a cure for Scoliosis - people like Scolismart etc.

                        Anyone who comes on the forum or worse still creates their own site or facebook page talking rubbish rather than science gets challenged by me.

                        I had already brought Scolismart to the attention of this forum hoping we could collectively do something about it.

                        The last thing I want when/if I post something asking for 'support' is hugs and kisses from people I don't even know. So when I said I thought this was a support site - I meant support in the way of replies that provide accurate information. This is what is available from SSo also. And I did not appreciate the slightly disparaging implication that maybe I should go there. Scoliosis is worldwide and being respectful of the US, I expect real scientific progress to come from there eventually.

                        I just objected to the comment saying ' we've had this conversation so many times before' - especially from a mod. This was the comment I felt was negative and did not contribute to the discussion at all.

                        Well I hadn't read it before because I am relatively new I expect a lot of newcomers would also not have come across such a discussion either. I was in no way objecting to the counter-posts which scientifically refuted what was being said.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by burdle View Post
                          I had a post in another thread that has since been closed- my post was not really part of the raging argument- but just made a comment about support. For the record I am the FIRST person who wants to lay into these people who are making a fortune out of pretending they have a cure for Scoliosis - people like Scolismart etc.
                          I wouldn't characterize that as an "argument." There were not two sides. I agree you are helping in the war against pseudoscience!

                          Anyone who comes on the forum or worse still creates their own site or facebook page talking rubbish rather than science gets challenged by me.
                          And you are especially good at it I might add. :-)

                          The last thing I want when/if I post something asking for 'support' is hugs and kisses from people I don't even know. So when I said I thought this was a support site - I meant support in the way of replies that provide accurate information. This is what is available from SSo also. And I did not appreciate the slightly disparaging implication that maybe I should go there. Scoliosis is worldwide and being respectful of the US, I expect real scientific progress to come from there eventually.
                          NO! I did not mean to imply you should go to SSo. We need you here! I was directing the comment to other people who really are not interested in science and just want support. And that is okay. For those people, I think SSo is a better environment because I for one am going to challenge any comments touting pseudoscience here.

                          Well I hadn't read it before because I am relatively new I expect a lot of newcomers would also not have come across such a discussion either. I was in no way objecting to the counter-posts which scientifically refuted what was being said.
                          I LOVE that you post here, Burdle! I love WHAT you post.

                          The problem arises when some people want support for pseudoscience. They shouldn't get support for that for their own sake and that of others. That was the issue in the closed thread.
                          Last edited by Pooka1; 02-10-2016, 11:01 AM.
                          Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                          No island of sanity.

                          Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                          Answer: Medicine


                          "We are all African."

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by burdle View Post
                            I had a post in another thread that has since been closed- my post was not really part of the raging argument- but just made a comment about support. For the record I am the FIRST person who wants to lay into these people who are making a fortune out of pretending they have a cure for Scoliosis - people like Scolismart etc.

                            Anyone who comes on the forum or worse still creates their own site or facebook page talking rubbish rather than science gets challenged by me.

                            I had already brought Scolismart to the attention of this forum hoping we could collectively do something about it.

                            The last thing I want when/if I post something asking for 'support' is hugs and kisses from people I don't even know. So when I said I thought this was a support site - I meant support in the way of replies that provide accurate information. This is what is available from SSo also. And I did not appreciate the slightly disparaging implication that maybe I should go there. Scoliosis is worldwide and being respectful of the US, I expect real scientific progress to come from there eventually.

                            I just objected to the comment saying ' we've had this conversation so many times before' - especially from a mod. This was the comment I felt was negative and did not contribute to the discussion at all.

                            Well I hadn't read it before because I am relatively new I expect a lot of newcomers would also not have come across such a discussion either. I was in no way objecting to the counter-posts which scientifically refuted what was being said.
                            I have never was in a Clear group and I was banned in a lot of scoliosis sites, Face, Yahoo groups, forums.. the problem is not how much "according to science" is what that sites are promoting, the problem is that they are promoting something in a dishonest way.. fortunately not all of them. Of course if you begin to questioning what they promotes in those dishonest sites, you cannot be welcome. I was in a surgeon's Scoliosis group where only was accepted to talk about options recognized and used for the medical community.. we may say belonging to the medical protocol. His argument was that nothing not emerging from science or at least, analyzed, understood and statistically checked by scientists may work, and if something can accomplish those requirements, it belongs now to the medical community protocol, so you only can talk there about rigid braces and fusion. They didn't need to ban many people thinking different, they attacked them trying to show them as ignorants, don't knowing what science is and since very much few people resists attacks, able to respond to them, they leaves the site, exactly what they wants. Of course they know that Internet is the more important way to promote what they promotes and of course they must to disqualify every competence and people believing in it.
                            As I interpret you also think that debates should always be allowed, but some debates may show that what they promotes, may not be so good, no the best and only one option and competence may be better at least in some cases, so they try to don't allow debates.
                            And the worst of all are sites not saying in your face what they are promoting! They pretend to not be promoting nothing and they does EXACTLY what I said.
                            So don't be so worry about Clear groups, just only a drop in the sea and surely not the worst.
                            Last edited by flerc; 02-11-2016, 04:39 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by flerc View Post
                              Chiropractic like Yoga or Qigong is a ancient practice from thousands of years ago, to not coming from science not necessary imply to be useless.
                              People have believed for centuries in the miasma theory. It turned out to be a fantasy, like so many other things. Like the humors theory of of Hippocrates and so on. The practice being old\ancient means literally nothing. As for yoga, this is more of a religious practise rather than a treatment method. I'm quite intimately acquainted with all sorts of bogus practises, you name it. Chiro, magnetic belt treatment for scoliosis, metaphysical wooden hammers for spinal reconstruction(the wood is physical enough), homeopathy for scoliosis treatment(you know not enough calcium bull....), useless energy massage(supposedly the quack infuses you with energy to treat scoliosis), reiki nonsense and other stuff I don't remember. When I was an adolescent a quack prescribed me to breath only through the left nostril. Supposedly this was supposed to "treat" the disbalance. Whenever I hear the word alternative treatment I want to vomit. I've been screwed up SO many times by quacks that I owe it to myself to be a skeptic and believe only in things that are provable.
                              _MG_3307.jpg Coronal plane
                              _MG_3309.jpg Sagittal plane

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                As I know, alternative methods are those not belonging to the medical protocol, so if you are an adult with scoliosis and you want to vomit when you hear about alternative methods, you have only two options: Doing nothing (they call it watch and wait) if you are under the surgical range and fusion, if you are in that range. Also in both cases you can use meds, drugs.. Good luck with those options!.

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