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Thread: My Adult Scoliosis Story

  1. #76
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    Scott,
    First of all, I don't think anyone thinks you're lying about your measurements.

    I often tend to defend Sharon's statements when I believe she's not being malicious. She's tamed down and I haven't seen her malicious with you. I get into trouble with some people when I try to interpret what I "think" she means when people take things the wrong way, in my mind at least. I don't believe she was being malicious at all with you. She found research papers that actually backed up what you were saying, being that you were using the same terminology as the researchers did in their papers. That's not malicious. That's showing you that other people/actual researchers HAVE already looked at things in the manner that you have described them. That's where your lack of understanding of the terminology comes in to play. It's not intended to make fun of you, but to show you that it's been done. People thought that Albert Einstein was an idiot and I'm pretty sure he didn't graduate, either. I'm sure he regretted developing the A-bomb, but that's not what he's remembered for. Sharon was, in my opinion, paying you a great compliment by finding researchers that had written papers on the terminologies that you were using. Being compared to a Ph.D., M.D. researcher as a 10th grade drop-out is no insult. She wasn't making fun of you if you look at it that way. If she's going to insult you, believe me she doesn't hide it one bit. Look at her and Flerc's conversations. She does not hide her dislike of his ideas.

    Now in your mind you invisage something else that doesn't fit your former terminology. While the apology is appreciated. It is not necessary. Getting you to understand what it is you are saying and trying to explain is the important thing. No one needs to be right and no one needs to be wrong. There is no satisfaction in that. There IS satisfaction in helping someone narrow down their thoughts, learn to express them correctly, and seeing that a person is learning and benefitting from new knowledge, which you were humble enough to express.

    Now I'm going to challenge you on your thought of seeing things in 3D and expressing them in planes. A plane is a 2D model, like a flat piece of glass, a wall, etc. you get the idea. 2D models are "usually" expressed on an (x,y) axis. So you can use formulas to describe shapes, or you can make "sheets" that go on for infinity. 3D models are expressed on an (x,y,z) axis. With this you can make three dimensional shapes, like spheres, pyramids, and even people! Now you can also make intersecting planes in the 3D model. You can make an infinite number of intersecting planes. In medicine, the four planes are the frontal plane (how you can make your side to side measurements - the degree of your Cobb angle), the sagittal plane (this gives you your side view or sagittal measurement), the transverse plane (like the "magic" trick of sawing someone in half as they lay in a box) and finally the oblique plane which takes a diagonal slice. You can most certainly describe these planes by making 2D descriptions for each plane on a 3D axis except the oblique plane. Here is a link to a picture of what I'm describing: http://o.quizlet.com/i/nJguMYh2jxDKklRi1GTNDQ_m.jpg (I hope it works.) In the case you are describing to me using planes, these planes should all intersect at the same spot which is a single point. So I don't quite follow your thinking since every point on your spine, scoliotic or not, will have its own unique set of planes, however many planes you want to use.

    My hypothesis:
    I honestly don't think you have AIS. If you did, your thoracic curve would have been present during adolescence. It may have been. I don't know and it sounds as if you don't know, either. I honestly think that your 12o lumbar curve came from your LLD. It could have been corrected simply with a shoe lift. After time as we age, our bodies will tend to straighten themselves out. This means you develop another curve to compensate for the original curve. It sounds from your description that the lumbar curve was there first, making it the primary curve. You can have a compensatory curve become structural after time. It happened to me. The only way to find out if either of your curves are really structural is to have bending x-rays to see if you can bend them out. If you can bend them out then they would be, as Sharon called them, functional curves. This doesn't mean that you don't have scoliosis. It does mean that you would be more likely than most of us to respond to physical therapy based treatments. I would start by asking your doctor about orthotics (a shoe lift) to address your LLD. Then PT based therapies. I believe that you indeed DID hurt your back at work. Again, my thoughts, I'm not a doctor. When you hurt your back it caused acute muscle spasms. Then, from lack of taking care of yourself (at your own admission - sitting hunched over for hours of video game enjoyment), you developed chronic muscle spasms that have pulled your spine out of whack. Now whether it has become structural or not is up to you and your doctor to find out. S/he may not be willing to do bending x-rays because of the cost of extra x-rays and the fact that your scoliosis is mild. In my opinion it's best to find out when it is mild so you can get appropriate treatment before it progresses. This may be why you don't fit any particular model. I don't think your accident "caused" your scoliosis. I think it exacerbated what was there and you didn't follow through in taking care of your back. Because of this and your age (I know you're still young) you may be developing degenerative scoliosis. My ex had degenerative scoliosis from undiagnosed DDD at the age of 34. It was enough to classify him as "disabled" due to pain. He did not have scoliosis that we knew of prior to a work injury where he pulled his back muscles which set off a chain of events that made his discs worse and induced chronic muscle spasms and pain.

    Looking at your coronal x-ray (thank you for sharing), I can immediately see the lumbar curve. I had to look a little harder to see the thoracic curve even though it measures larger. On your external standing image of your back I could also see a little lumbar curve despite your shorts being uneven (I was looking at your hip bones). Looking at your sagittal x-ray I can see that your shoulders are rolled forward and you seem to have a bit of a larger kyphosis. It doesn't appear this way on your external pictures. Did you slouch for your x-ray? If not, it just may be hidden externally by the way you stand. You seem to be quite muscular through your shoulders and upper back and not so much through your torso and lower back.

    My advice to you is to work on your posture and exercise those core muscles. We should all be doing that whether we have scoliosis or not. If nothing else, it may save you a lot of lower back pain in the future. If you already have lower back pain, it will help (from experience). And finally, be THANKFUL that it isn't worse and try to keep it that way.

    If it makes you feel any better, my original scoliosis never fit a pattern either AND I developed it early on in life. Now, at my age, it has become degenerative scoliosis and will continue to progress per my neurosurgeon that I saw back in May.

    Best wishes,
    Rohrer01
    Be happy!
    We don't know what tomorrow brings,
    but we are alive today!

  2. #77
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    Scott,

    I generally agree with your measurement. I eyeballed it at between 10 and 20 degrees so was glad when you came up with 16 degrees.

    There is no way at this point to determine how long you had that curve before your shoulder/neck injury. There are no radiographs from before your injury so it is impossible to know. You may have had it as long as you have had the LLD. I would bet lots of money you can not only bend that out but overbend it the other way. I agree with Rohrer that is probably isn't AIS but who knows.

    The symptoms in your arm at the time of injury point to a neck injury, not a back injury. The neck is where the nerves to the arm originate. There is probably no reason to relate your neck/shoulder injury to the small curve at the bottom of your thorax. I am surprised they imaged your whole back and not just your neck given your symptoms. Just because you had a small curve does not mean it was affected by or affects anything associated with your injury. You can have two issues that don't affect each other.

    I agree with Rohrer that you may have muscle spasms from something associated with the injury that never healed. Or you could have a third issue unrelated to the first two that is involved in that. Who knows. At least your curve isn't getting larger and appears stable this entire time.

    By the way, did a chiro tell you you had a LLD? I think that has to be determined more rigorously from lower body radiographs and not by a chiro eyeballing it.

    Glad you posted the radiographs.
    Last edited by Pooka1; 01-26-2016 at 08:46 PM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  3. #78
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    Hey Rohrer,
    Its not that I'm worried about people thinking I'm lying about my measurements, it's more that I think people won't believe me when I say that the 'injury' started a 'system of bad biomechanical loading within my spinal column'.
    Altered biomechanics if you will. I don't want people thinking I've been making all this fuss over something that isn't even real.
    I'd rather people considered the idea that something different happened to my spine and scoliosis (than compared to normal AIS patients) than think I'm wrong about seeing a 'system of bad load loading' take place as a result of that work injury.
    I'm sure that you be able to see from that first photo of my back that even though I was bent over the box in a weird sort of position that something isnt quite right about the structure of my spine.

    Regarding Sharon, I didn't think she was being particularly malicious, maybe thoughtless and talking about me like I'm not right here listening, and insinuating that its all in my head and that I dont have scoliosis.
    Thats how I've been made to feel ever since this all started and its the one thing that is likely to make me feel pushed in a corner and to lash out in response.

    As for that paper on 'vicious cycle' she found, yes she does deserve credit for finding it, and I should've told her so, she did good.
    I thought I'd struck gold too when I found it, but I've spoken with Ian Stokes and I came to understand that we're referring to different things.
    It just so happens that 'vicious cycle' is a good description to describe both ideas.

    If my terminology on a few things is incorrect then I accept that criticism as being valid, I just hate being made to feel like a liar and/or crazy when I say that the injury started a system of bad loading in the structure of my spinal column.
    I do understand though that others will bring proprioception to mind and say "your just feeling things moving around and must be mistaken" rather than my argument which is "I'm feeling and trying to describe very specific things that follow a system".

    As for 'vector', say I drew a line on a piece of paper, and then I was able to pick up that line and wave it around.
    What do I call that line now that its it 3d space? That's what I was referring to when I said 'vector'.
    What if I have 4 lines all in 3d space joined together, like a straight piece of wire that's got 3 sharp bends in it?
    What do I call that?
    That's what I meant by a 'vector set', I know its incorrect but I still don't know what else to call it.
    I shouldn't have called it 'planes' yesterday, really its just a set of lines connected together in 3d space.

    I do have a little 3d modelling experience, but not enough to say I'm skilled in any way in it.
    Most of the things you mentioned are known to me, however I really enjoyed your presentation. Lol
    Regarding planes, I know that in the scoliosis sense there's coronal, (though I can't remember if I'd heard it called frontal), sagittal (which in relation to xrays is also referred to as 'lateral view'), and axial planes (I think I've heard it called transverse plane).
    But I did not know about oblique plane.

    Ive made basic models in 3ds max (software) with tutorials such as cannon, apartment block, chandelier, and aeroplane a few years back but I'm not at a skill level where I can manipulate moving objects within a model, well not a spinal column model anyway.
    I tried, I actually have a spinal column model for 3d software on my pc somewhere.
    I actually downloaded a 1 month trial version of 3ds Max yesterday, after reading your message so when I get around to it, I'm going to show you what I mean by these lines, and create a viewable 3d movie to show it.
    http://www.autodesk.com.au/products/3ds-max/free-trial#


    I'm not convinced I have AIS either, I didn't seem to have the rapid progression seen in AIS patients in adolescence.
    The SRS says LLD doesn't cause scoliosis, but I find it hard to believe that there isn't a relationship between the LLD and the spinal curvature that must have developed prior to my work injury, so I agree with you on that point.

    And I don't think I fit in the Degenerative Scoliosis category either. (Dear SRS, Please Explain...)
    So I guess technically my scoliosis category should be 'uncategorized' and thus requires further investigation.

    Maybe that initial spinal curvature could have been managed with a shoe lift, but since I'm all 21st century I would've said "Chop the leg! and shove some bone in there to equalize leg lengths".
    I don't think a shoe lift would work now because of the 'altered biomechanics'.

    I never really understood the terms 'structural' and 'functional' very well, they are confusing terms from my point of view of having a 'structural' injury and I need to look them up again.
    I have to say it never really occurred to me to get bending xrays, though I don't really understand their purpose, I can say I probably would've liked to have had the freedom to choose a few xray views of my own.
    I really wish I could get right in there around T6 and have a real good look at whats actually gone wrong.
    I would've liked to have had the freedom to explore all it properly.

    I can't speculate on which curves developed first in the years prior to my work injury because I didn't have any xrays until after my work injury.
    I wasn't specifically aware of any LLD or spinal curvature prior to my injury, though there were some tell-tale signs that should've been enough that I should've gone and gotten it checked out, but unfortunately for me, I didn't.

    I've always felt that no treatment would work unless it was based on the exact system of altered biomechanics that I already see occurring.

    [Hey random question, you mentioned getting xrays done by a doctor or chiropractor - Do they do their own xrays in the US? In Australia xrays are done by a radiologist. A specialised person who does xrays, ultrasounds, CT scans etc. They arent done by the Doctor or Chiropractor themselves.]

    I'd probably agree with you that I wasn't taking very good care of my back prior to my work injury, but I didn't know about the spinal curvature or LLD.
    If I hadn't have been so ignorant and paid attention to the fact something wasn't quite right and got it looked at and found out about these things maybe I would've taken better care of my back, and thus avoided the injury.
    But where my opinion differs is that as a direct result of that injury something changed structurally.
    One day it was 'normal biomechanical function' the next day it was 'altered biomechanical function'.
    Whether I did or didn't take care of my back after the injury is only a secondary issue to the main problem that something structurally had changed and the biomechanics are operating in an altered state as a direct result.

    The story of your ex and his work injury and scoliosis sounds interesting...
    Does a degenerative scoliosis like this have a curve pattern?

    Regarding my frontal Xray, its funny that I also have another xray at home where the thoracolumbar curve was measured at 20 and the lumbar at 12, in 2009.
    I want to see if I can get it scanned so I can look at it with the digital software and share it, as well as get new xrays as well.

    That digital xray software is awesome too btw, and I actually looked up and found you can download it online though other radiologists and use their logon PACS address (as they make it available) but to get your own PACS email address your organization needs to be registered with them, and I think its something scoliosis.org members on this forum should have access to.
    I think its something everyone should be using and so I want to look more into that for myself.

    Yes, I think from memory that sagittal (lateral) Xray they might have asked me to cross my arms and hunch over, but I cant exactly remember, usually I put my arms out at 90 degree to my body and like they would be if they were folded or crossed, only with one forearm laying flat on the other instead, and whilst standing.
    I cant remember if the radiologist did it differently that time, (sometimes they do that - it annoys me) If it looks like I'm hunched over I probably am.
    I will say I do have a little bit of a kyphosis around T3-T4, just a little lump that I can feel which is significant in the altered biomechanics I wish I could better define.

    Oh yeah, you got cranky about my use of 'lordosis in kyphosis'.. Lol.
    Sometimes my descriptive terminology is sloppy..
    What I mean is an 'element' of lordosis in kyphosis.
    Not necessarily a whole lordotic curve like Cervical or Lumbar that you will see in an xray.
    I sometimes just shorten it out of laziness which probably changes the description a little.
    Sorry for the confusion.

    I do get out and work on the farm where I live here and there.
    A few paid hours a week and sometimes more, 10 or 15, though sometimes it really takes it out of me.
    I've got a motorbike which I also ride around the farm on sometimes too.
    I just got my motorbike license on NYE and have to get it registered now as I don't have a car atm.
    Last edited by sjmcphee; 01-27-2016 at 07:31 PM.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by sjmcphee View Post
    I'm not convinced I have AIS either, I didn't seem to have the rapid progression seen in AIS patients in adolescence.
    Most small AIS curves do not progress, rapidly or otherwise, in adolescence or at any time. If you didn't have a LLD, your small, non-progressive curve would be typical of AIS. Because you have a LLD, hopefully you only have a functional (reversible) scoliosis.

    The SRS says LLD doesn't cause scoliosis, but I find it hard to believe that there isn't a relationship between the LLD and the spinal curvature that must have developed prior to my work injury, so I agree with you on that point.
    LLD doesn't cause a STRUCTURAL scoliosis. It apparently can cause a FUNCTIONAL scoliosis.

    http://www.webmd.com/back-pain/tc/scoliosis-cause

    Nonstructural (functional) scoliosis

    Nonstructural (functional) scoliosis involves a curve in the spine, without rotation, that is reversible because it is caused by a condition such as:
    - Pain or a muscle spasm.
    - A difference in leg length.
    Structural scoliosis

    Structural scoliosis involves a curve in the spine, with rotation, that is irreversible and is usually caused by an unknown factor (idiopathic) or a disease or condition such as:
    - Disorders that were present at birth (congenital), such as spina bifida, in which the spinal canal does not close properly; or a disorder that affects the formation of bones. These curves can be harder to correct. They often get worse as the child grows, especially during the teen years.
    - Nerve or muscle disorders, such as cerebral palsy, Marfan's syndrome, or muscular dystrophy.
    - Injuries.
    - Infections.
    - Tumors.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  5. #80
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    Scott,

    Yes, I did get corrective about kyphosis/lordosis. You either have a measure of one, the other, or a straight spine. You can't have an element of one within the other. I still stand by that. It's not being cranky. It's defining terms. I've also heard frontal plane and coronal plane used interchangeably. I would stick with coronal just in case I made a mistake. I had my recent rib fracture diagnosed with an oblique x-ray. It was VERY unpleasant.

    If you have a line with three angles in it, it would be called a line, point, line, point, line, point, line. There would be an angle at every point. A line moving around in space would be characterized by using a set of linear algebraic equations. That's what higher math is used for. The mathematicians use higher math (way beyond me) and turn it into computer code so that the IT nerds (my son is one, lol) can make their moving pictures and video games! :-)

    I stand by my last statement of not being able to tell if you back muscles look different from one side to the other. Of course they do, but you have one arm stretched forward and the other at your side. Anyone's back musculature would look askew in that position. You need to bend over and let your arms dangle toward your toes. Then and only then could anyone see anything amiss.

    In the USA radiology technicians take the x-rays for the most part, while the radiologist (specialized medical doctor) reads them. Any licensed medical doctor "can" read them, but the radiologists take extra training in that field. I had one procedure done a couple of months ago that I found out was done by a radiologist. It was a procedure that was usually done by a technician and read by a radiologist, but he wanted to see it on live fluoroscopy for himself (moving x-ray).

    Because your curve has been stable for years, I don't think that your work injury caused your scoliosis. I think it was a secondary finding, sorry. My exes scoliosis was caused by DDD. It was discovered by x-ray after the work injury. The injury caused the muscle spasms. I think something similar happened to you. Since you can't say for sure "what" caused your scoliosis, then you would fit into the IS (idiopathic scoliosis) category unless otherwise shown. Now with your hypothesis of the imbalanced loading, I will be curious to see what your next set of x-rays look like. If it progresses and you show absolutely NO sign of spinal wear and tear (even normal for your age), then that will pique my interest a little more. I do believe you can "feel" little things going on in your body if you are one that is in tune with yourself. I can feel my scoliosis progress at times. It's harder for me to feel now that I don't walk normally anymore. My gait has changed from muscle disease, and probably my scoliosis, too. But glad to hear that your back isn't hurting so badly that you can ride a motorbike! Be careful and wear a HELMET!

    I can't say that degenerative scoliosis that develops as strictly degenerative scoliosis would follow a typical pattern. If there is a scoliosis already present, I would guess that it would, as in my case. Your scoliosis does seem to follow a typical right thoracic pattern which I believe is the most common pattern. Lefties are less common, but they still fit a pattern. Yours would be called a thoracolumbar curve.

    I hope you have a good day. Not sure the time zone difference.

    Rohrer01
    Be happy!
    We don't know what tomorrow brings,
    but we are alive today!

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Scott,

    I generally agree with your measurement. I eyeballed it at between 10 and 20 degrees so was glad when you came up with 16 degrees.

    There is no way at this point to determine how long you had that curve before your shoulder/neck injury. There are no radiographs from before your injury so it is impossible to know. You may have had it as long as you have had the LLD. I would bet lots of money you can not only bend that out but overbend it the other way. I agree with Rohrer that is probably isn't AIS but who knows.

    The symptoms in your arm at the time of injury point to a neck injury, not a back injury. The neck is where the nerves to the arm originate. There is probably no reason to relate your neck/shoulder injury to the small curve at the bottom of your thorax. I am surprised they imaged your whole back and not just your neck given your symptoms. Just because you had a small curve does not mean it was affected by or affects anything associated with your injury. You can have two issues that don't affect each other.

    I agree with Rohrer that you may have muscle spasms from something associated with the injury that never healed. Or you could have a third issue unrelated to the first two that is involved in that. Who knows. At least your curve isn't getting larger and appears stable this entire time.

    By the way, did a chiro tell you you had a LLD? I think that has to be determined more rigorously from lower body radiographs and not by a chiro eyeballing it.

    Glad you posted the radiographs.
    Hey Sharon,

    Yeah I get what you are saying about the nerves in my neck, and I'm not debating it, but an actual structural injury did occur around T3-T6.
    I heard it, felt it, felt the result of it, and the Chiropractor noted the inflammation there.
    Maybe something happened up in my shoulder / neck area as well, since it was partially caused by the movement of my arm (and lateral flexion) and partly from flexion / extension (leaning over the box).

    My legs were measured by a leading orthopedic surgeon, the head of orthopedics in my state.
    But he did it with one of those soft plastic dressmakers measuring tapes by hand, and said there was a 1cm difference.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by sjmcphee View Post
    Hey Sharon,

    Yeah I get what you are saying about the nerves in my neck, and I'm not debating it, but an actual structural injury did occur around T3-T6.
    In the soft tissue around your spine, right? That makes sense with the description of the movement you did. Is there any evidence you did anything to your actual spine in that area? Your symptoms map to hurting your neck not your thoracic spine. You would have different symptoms if you hurt T3-T6 which you didn't have so it was only soft tissue that was injured luckily.

    I heard it, felt it, felt the result of it, and the Chiropractor noted the inflammation there.
    That was the soft tissue, yes? How could you have actually injured your spine with that movement? If that was possible everyone would have a spinal injury much of the time but we don't see that.
    Last edited by Pooka1; 01-28-2016 at 08:46 AM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  8. #83
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    Scott, just to finally get some piece of mind, maybe you could ask an orthopedic surgeon if it is even possible to injure your actual spine between T3 and T6 doing what you did. I am not sure why you didn't think it was a soft tissue injury. The nerve maps would rule out your injuring T3-T6 based on your symptoms as I understand this.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    Scott,

    Yes, I did get corrective about kyphosis/lordosis. You either have a measure of one, the other, or a straight spine. You can't have an element of one within the other. I still stand by that. It's not being cranky. It's defining terms. I've also heard frontal plane and coronal plane used interchangeably. I would stick with coronal just in case I made a mistake. I had my recent rib fracture diagnosed with an oblique x-ray. It was VERY unpleasant.

    If you have a line with three angles in it, it would be called a line, point, line, point, line, point, line. There would be an angle at every point. A line moving around in space would be characterized by using a set of linear algebraic equations. That's what higher math is used for. The mathematicians use higher math (way beyond me) and turn it into computer code so that the IT nerds (my son is one, lol) can make their moving pictures and video games! :-)

    I stand by my last statement of not being able to tell if you back muscles look different from one side to the other. Of course they do, but you have one arm stretched forward and the other at your side. Anyone's back musculature would look askew in that position. You need to bend over and let your arms dangle toward your toes. Then and only then could anyone see anything amiss.

    In the USA radiology technicians take the x-rays for the most part, while the radiologist (specialized medical doctor) reads them. Any licensed medical doctor "can" read them, but the radiologists take extra training in that field. I had one procedure done a couple of months ago that I found out was done by a radiologist. It was a procedure that was usually done by a technician and read by a radiologist, but he wanted to see it on live fluoroscopy for himself (moving x-ray).

    Because your curve has been stable for years, I don't think that your work injury caused your scoliosis. I think it was a secondary finding, sorry. My exes scoliosis was caused by DDD. It was discovered by x-ray after the work injury. The injury caused the muscle spasms. I think something similar happened to you. Since you can't say for sure "what" caused your scoliosis, then you would fit into the IS (idiopathic scoliosis) category unless otherwise shown. Now with your hypothesis of the imbalanced loading, I will be curious to see what your next set of x-rays look like. If it progresses and you show absolutely NO sign of spinal wear and tear (even normal for your age), then that will pique my interest a little more. I do believe you can "feel" little things going on in your body if you are one that is in tune with yourself. I can feel my scoliosis progress at times. It's harder for me to feel now that I don't walk normally anymore. My gait has changed from muscle disease, and probably my scoliosis, too. But glad to hear that your back isn't hurting so badly that you can ride a motorbike! Be careful and wear a HELMET!

    I can't say that degenerative scoliosis that develops as strictly degenerative scoliosis would follow a typical pattern. If there is a scoliosis already present, I would guess that it would, as in my case. Your scoliosis does seem to follow a typical right thoracic pattern which I believe is the most common pattern. Lefties are less common, but they still fit a pattern. Yours would be called a thoracolumbar curve.

    I hope you have a good day. Not sure the time zone difference.

    Rohrer01
    Hey Rohrer,
    I was going to wait until tomorrow to reply, but I couldn't help myself.

    When you say I can't have an element of one in the other (kyphosis/lordosis) ...then I kind of think this is awesome news... because we are getting down to the nitty-gritty...
    I wish you were here, or I was there, because then I could just show you exactly what I mean and let you feel it for yourself...
    There is a tiny little element of lordosis in my normal kyphotic curve, and this is the basis for the instability and all the bad loading that I'm trying to say has been occurring in my spine..
    This is the 'why' I have the altered biomechanics and the system of instability I'm talking about.

    That's what the tiny little concaves and covexes Im talking about essentially are - tiny little elements of kyphosis and lordosis.
    And remember how I said that that these concave / convex instances also occurred at the junction of the spines natural curves?

    Also, try to understand something I'm trying to convey...

    These concave and convex instances if you will... have a coronal element and a sagittal element to them..
    Its a compression/tension (or facet joints in motion type) element for the convex or kyphotic element, and an rotation of the trunk (or axial rotation element) for the concave or lordotic element.

    Now because you've got this structural point where the concave and convex meet intervertebrally, whats happening is that instead of affecting adjacent verterbrae, the stretch and unstrech of connective tissue affects other regions of the spine.
    I want you to have a look for the specific deep muscles that start at transverse process (both sides) and arise about 6 vertebrae and connect to spinous process.
    This is the basis for the coronal element and the sagittal element at these concave / convex junctions

    Now think about this that little concave and convex around T6 the the center of my spine.
    On the top side of that concave / convex instance - the spinous process ligaments are stretching down to the lumbar region, or at least enough to affect the thoracolumbar junction.
    On the bottom side of that concave convex instance - the transverse process ligaments are arising up to cervical region, or at least enough to affect the cervicothoracic junction.

    So all it takes is for that screw up to occur from that 'element of lordosis' from this injury I told you guys about, and you set in place the conditions for the spinal column to destroy itself.

    Whether or not you believe me, if you didn't live on the opposite side of our planet, I'd gladly come round and show you.
    And you do have to admit that if I'm wrong, it still is pretty elaborate and creative this whole altered biomechanics thing I'm trying to describe hey.
    If I'm making it up or my minds somehow mistaken and warped then you still gotta give me credit because my stories pretty sound.
    I think it makes logical enough sense and ticks all the boxes but hey, I'll have to come up with a better way to share what I'm trying to put forward.

    Oh yeah and when I said 'cranky' I meany it in a funny jokingly way, not a serious way, just so you know.
    Also I read yesterday thoracolumbar curve is actually a curve where apex is at T12 or L1.. Mines at T10 I think, so does that actually make it a thoracic curve instead.
    And my numbers weren't as big as what I thought, and this +/- 5 thing, plus I'm gonna get new xrays soon when I can get there.
    Don't go thinking its stable just yet, we'll just wait and see.

  10. #85
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    147
    Hey Sharon,
    Yes I do need to prepare / develop a really good plan for the next time I go see an orthopedic surgeon and make sure I ask all THE RIGHT questions.
    I just haven't exactly figured it out just yet.

    Thanks for listening both you guys and sorry if I was rude to you Sharon.

    Oh and by the way Rohrer, its GMT +10 here, 12:22am, just after midnight.

    And actually I'm petrified of riding the bike on the road, although I can ride ok, but I'm too used to having the protection of a car when on the road.
    Its feel like I'm out there all unprotected on a motorized seat.

    It's not the best on my back either but its kind of the only option I have other than public transport atm until I get another car.
    Maybe I should just settle for a cheaper car, but I'd rather get something that I like instead of dislike.
    Last edited by sjmcphee; 01-28-2016 at 09:29 AM.

  11. #86
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    east coast
    Posts
    359
    Scott with the movement you made, you may have had clay shovelers fracture. It usually happens at C6/7 but can happen at thoracic levels.
    30 something y.o.

    2003 - T45, L???
    2005 - T50, L31
    bunch of measurements between...

    2011 - T60, L32
    2013 - T68, L?

    Posterior Fusion Sept 2014 -- T3 - L3
    Post - op curve ~35



  12. #87
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    9,317
    Wouldn't that show up on the radiographs?
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  13. #88
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    east coast
    Posts
    359
    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Wouldn't that show up on the radiographs?
    It should, but I think if it was a hairline fracture with lots of soft tissue tear it won't.

    I was in a car accident once and the same day (later, not immediately during the accident) I heard a pop in my upper thoracic spine with pain and actually had pain for months afterward, with no obvious xray changes. Probably around T4ish.

    Dr. said possible clay shoveler esq injury and there wasn't much that could be done without an obvioius change on xray. Apparently healed 1 -2 yrs later because that area no longer hurts.
    Last edited by green m&m; 01-28-2016 at 10:33 AM.
    30 something y.o.

    2003 - T45, L???
    2005 - T50, L31
    bunch of measurements between...

    2011 - T60, L32
    2013 - T68, L?

    Posterior Fusion Sept 2014 -- T3 - L3
    Post - op curve ~35



  14. #89
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    147
    Oh great...
    So if and when all this is said and done.. I'll go down is history as suffering from 'Box Taper's Syndrome'... Awesome [sic]

    Hello green m&m,
    I haven't heard of 'Clay Shovelers Fracture' before, so I googled it and found a wikipedia explanation. (Probably not the most reliable)

    "Clay-shoveler's fracture is a stable fracture through the spinous process of a vertebra occurring at any of the lower cervical or upper thoracic vertebrae, classically at C6 or C7.[1] In Australia in the 1930s, men digging deep ditches tossed clay 10 to 15 feet above their heads using long handled shovels.[2] Instead of separating, the sticky clay would sometimes stick to the shovel; the worker would hear a pop and feel a sudden pain between the shoulder blades, unable to continue working. The mechanism of injury is believed to be secondary to muscle pull and reflex with force transmission through the supraspinous ligaments. The tremendous force pulls on the spinous process producing an avulsion fracture. The fracture is diagnosed by plain film examination."

    Not sure what to make of it right now as there are some differences in what I did but it does seem interesting....
    Thanks heaps for contributing...

    Also Sharon,
    I found this: http://www.thejoint.com/spine which supports what you said about the numbness I felt in my arms immediately after the injury.
    Its an interactive flash presentation, if you hover over C7 and T1 you'll see that the nerves are indeed going to my arms here.
    Its interesting that it wasn't just my neck as you said it was, but specifically right at the junction of the spines natural curves.

  15. #90
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    7,104
    Scott... Please post a link of your most recent lateral xray.
    Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
    Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

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