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  • #31
    Did you do this excercise only with the arm of the convex side? It sounds really very much logic what they says about provoking a null effect when is done in both sides.
    Certianly if I may be sure this study is saying the true about reductions measured according standard x-rays procedures, and there was at least just only one adult with idiopathic scoliosis having a big reduction, the absence of control groups would not be a problem for me and I'd encourage my daughter to do it although her physiatrist sure would not agree and there is a risk of harming the shoulder and the arm.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by flerc View Post
      This Pilates teacher says it was a degeneratice case: 'Idiopathic scoliosis usually has at least two curves and the research shows that seven patients had secondary curves. Meaning that seven patients with “S” curves had idiopathic scoliosis and the last 12 compliant patients with a single “C” curve had degenerative scoliosis... Of the seven people that had idiopathic scoliosis, their curvatures ranged from 6 to 43 degrees in their initial X-ray. '
      It's true what she is saying?
      The most common curve pattern in AIS is right thoracic which is a single curve. This is at least half the cases per that one study Lenke did. The next most common is double major which is two curves. But other than the double major and triple major which is rare, single curves are in the majority when adding thoracic, TL, and lumbar curves.

      So I don't know what she is talking about.

      I also think these researchers are not distinguishing between structural and compensatory secondary curves. If so then they are cheating.
      Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

      No island of sanity.

      Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
      Answer: Medicine


      "We are all African."

      Comment


      • #33
        I thought the most common was to have at least one compensatory curve, but if is not true, then is possible that woman was an idiopathic case. Certainly is almost impossible for me to imagine a curve starting in adulthood reaching more than 100º!. I need to know if there was idiopathic adults in that study and this debunked article http://spiralspine.com/recent-side-p...arch-debunked/ confuses me too much. I'm trying to find in the Schroth book what she says but I only found some bending exercise like this http://scoliosis3dc.com/yoga-for-scoliosis-use-caution/ but not the side plank exercise! If she is right, someone may say me in what part of the Schroth's book is showing this exercise?
        Last edited by flerc; 01-06-2015, 06:02 PM.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by flerc View Post
          I thought the most common was to have at least one compensatory curve,
          Compensatory curves don't count. If is it one structural T curve plus a compensatory L curve (like both my daughters) then it is a ONE CURVE PATTERN as far as I know. One structural L curve plus a compensatory T curve is a ONE CURVE PATTERN. One TL curve plus one or more compensatory curves is a ONE CURVE PATTERN.

          Double majors are TWO CURVE PATTERNS because both are structural. Triple majors are THREE CURVE PATTERNS because all three curves are structural.

          For example, Thing 1 had a 30 something compensatory curve under her 58* structural curve. The T curve was corrected to <10*. The L curve correctly COMPLETELY without being touched. That's because it was compensatory. Thing 1 had a ONE CURVE PATTERN. If a compensatory curve can correct completely WITHOUT BEING TOUCHED then it means nothing to say yoga improved a compensatory curve. So what? The only think that matters is improving the structural curve in terms of avoiding surgery.

          Thing 2 bent out her >40* compensatory L curve to single digits. That's because the L curve was compensatory. She had a ONE CURVE PATTERN despite having a T curve of 57* and an L curve >40*.

          Linda will correct me if I'm wrong.

          In reporting treatment results, lumping corrections of compensatory curves with corrections to structural curves is just ignorance or deliberately misleading. There is no third option.
          Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

          No island of sanity.

          Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
          Answer: Medicine


          "We are all African."

          Comment


          • #35
            Yes, is more or least what I understand perhaps except because I think a double curve is when 2 curves has similar degrees. It seems it will be ever fuzzy for me what structural means. My daughter has a large main curve (so why I think is a C curve) and other compensatories, but when she is laying down all her vertebras seems to be aligned.
            It seems to me this Pilates teacher is saying that the big curves of the study has only (structural or not) ONE curve and that is common in degenerative scoliosis, what sounds logic for me.. good contribution for my confusion..

            Comment


            • #36
              http://www.scoliosis.org/glossary.php

              compensatory curve
              In spinal deformity, a secondary curve located above or below the structural curvature, which develops in order to maintain normal body alignment.

              structural curve
              A segment of the spine that has fixed lateral curvature.

              ------------

              http://espine.com/scoliosis/adolesce...hic-scoliosis/

              Structural curves are defined as those curves that incompletely straighten on side-bending. Compensatory curves straighten significantly on side bending and function to produce spinal balance.

              -----------

              http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3566250/

              This lead to the development of a new classification system which was presented by Lawrence Lenke in 2001 [7]. In order to define a curve type by the Lenke classification, one must identify the curve type, the lumbar modifier and, for the first time in any classification system for scoliosis, the sagittal profile was also included. A few new definitions were made: (1) Major curve: the curve of greatest magnitude and is always structural. (2) Minor curve: a smaller curve which may be structural or nonstructural. (3) Nonstructural curve: a curve which bends to less than 25° on side bending radiographs.

              According to these definitions there are six different curve types (Fig. 2):

              Type 1: main thoracic (MT) is the only structural curve while the others (proximal thoracic and lumbar or thoracolumbar) are nonstructural.
              Type 2: double thoracic in which the MT is the major curve, the proximal thoracic (PT) is the minor curve but is structural and the thoracolumbar (TL) or lumbar (L) curves are minor and nonstructural.
              Type 3: double major curve pattern in which the MT is the major curve and the lumbar is the minor one but is structural whereas the PT is nonstructural.
              Type 4: triple major curve pattern when the MT is the major curve but all three curves are structural.
              Type 5: the TL or L curve is the major and only structural curve, with the PT and\or MT curves being minor and nonstructural.
              Type 6: the TL or L curve is the major curve measuring at least 5° more than the MT which is the minor but structural curve.
              Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

              No island of sanity.

              Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
              Answer: Medicine


              "We are all African."

              Comment


              • #37
                Thanks!

                compensatory curve
                In spinal deformity, a secondary curve located above or below the structural curvature, which develops in order to maintain normal body alignment.

                structural curve
                A segment of the spine that has fixed lateral curvature.

                ------------
                It's what I understand

                Structural curves are defined as those curves that incompletely straighten on side-bending. Compensatory curves straighten significantly on side bending and function to produce spinal balance.

                I don't know what could happen on side bending, but the curve seems to only exists when gravity force is compressing the spine.

                What do you believe, the adult of the study with 105º has idiopathic or degenerative scoliosis?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by flerc View Post
                  If this study was only done in AIS or degenerative adults
                  I have read the study and it still looks unclear to me whether amongst the patients there definitely were adults with idiopatic scoliosis, changing a bone in a 40+ 50+ adult who has had idiopatic scoliosis since his/her teens surely is a different thing than changing a bone to someone who developed it in adulthood? (assuming a bone can be changed at all, that is).

                  ...Type 5: the TL or L curve is the major and only structural curve, with the PT and\or MT curves being minor and nonstructural...
                  ...compensatory curve
                  In spinal deformity, a secondary curve located above or below the structural curvature, which develops in order to maintain normal body alignment...
                  ...Structural curves are defined as those curves that incompletely straighten on side-bending. Compensatory curves straighten significantly on side bending and function to produce spinal balance...
                  ...A few new definitions were made: (1) Major curve: the curve of greatest magnitude and is always structural. (2) Minor curve: a smaller curve which may be structural or nonstructural. (3) Nonstructural curve: a curve which bends to less than 25° on side bending radiographs...
                  I was always told I had left lumbar rotoscoliosis with compensatory thoracic curve http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/f...ps21f0e5e7.jpg. Reading some of the definitions on this thread it all becomes very confusing, in my case the thoracic curve is not minor in the sense that is roughly the same amount of the lumbar (a bit more than 25°) and although there's no rotation if I had to trust these definitions then I would definitely call it double majour curve.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by flerc View Post
                    What do you believe, the adult of the study with 105º has idiopathic or degenerative scoliosis?
                    That's an interesting question. It is my understanding that degenerative curves are generally smaller than what AIS curves in adults can reach. By that logic, all the larger curves should be AIS and the smaller ones degenerative. But that's not what the paper says. I think there might be a mistake since... wait for it... these guys are NOT orthopedic surgeons. And it shows.
                    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                    No island of sanity.

                    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                    Answer: Medicine


                    "We are all African."

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Alistair View Post
                      I have read the study and it still looks unclear to me whether amongst the patients there definitely were adults with idiopatic scoliosis, changing a bone in a 40+ 50+ adult who has had idiopatic scoliosis since his/her teens surely is a different thing than changing a bone to someone who developed it in adulthood? (assuming a bone can be changed at all, that is).
                      I agree it is unclear. Now there are two choices... did they not know they weren't being clear or did they deliberately fuzzy it up?

                      I was always told I had left lumbar rotoscoliosis with compensatory thoracic curve http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/f...ps21f0e5e7.jpg. Reading some of the definitions on this thread it all becomes very confusing, in my case the thoracic curve is not minor in the sense that is roughly the same amount of the lumbar (a bit more than 25°) and although there's no rotation if I had to trust these definitions then I would definitely call it double majour curve.
                      IS requires rotation as far as I know. The rotation is driven by the anterior overgrowth of the spine as far as I know. It must rotate to accommodate that bone mass placement. The rotation drives the curve. Structural curves are rotated and compensatory curves are not. Hysterical curves can be quite large but have no rotation. Therefore they are not IS.

                      Linda may know this but it is my understanding that generally when two curves are about the same size they are both structural. Using the bending principle though, not only would your compensatory T curve bend out below 25* but so would your structural L curve (because even though it is 25* it would still bend out a little I think). So that rule only applies opt larger curves I bet.

                      Your radiograph looks like a small double major. I am not clear on how they claim there is only a lumber structural curve unless they could clearly see/measure rotation. Very strange. Maybe Linda knows or can ask a surgeon.
                      Last edited by Pooka1; 01-07-2015, 08:49 AM.
                      Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                      No island of sanity.

                      Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                      Answer: Medicine


                      "We are all African."

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
                        Your radiograph looks like a small double major. I am not clear on how they claim there is only a lumber structural curve unless they could clearly see/measure rotation. Very strange. Maybe Linda knows or can ask a surgeon.
                        Some of the abovementioned definitions contradict themselves I think, and it seems I’m not the only one who has heard different opinions about his “compensatory” curve http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...nsatory-Curves

                        Re-reading the bit about the older woman who got 60% reduction from 108 degrees it just makes it all the more confusing about who might benefit from this pose, adolescents with idiopathic scoliosis, adults with degenerative, or adults with idiopathic too… When the doctor tells her "maybe I'm kidding myself, but you actually seem straighter", I mean, come on we would all feel it if we had had a correction of 60% certainly no need for someone else to point it out? Bizarre.

                        I was just wondering, since they make such a point about asymmetric exercise in order to get correction (BTW I remember when I was a young teenager and was diagnosed with scoliosis they prevented me to play tennis, I loved it so much but there was no arguing about it “asymmetric sports are bad for you” that was the thinking in those years, and to be frank nowadays it’s not much clearer, so many high profile professionals for instance still can’t agree whether swimming is good or bad for us..) why hasn’t anyone before thought of this? I mean, in other sports, for example in the Lou Ferrigno era when gym was at its peak surely someone will have tried asymmetry to strengthen the muscles in scoliotic patients no? You all seem well documented have you ever heard in the past making asymmetry their key point to straighten the spine? Results? Yoga is most definitely useful for stretching and toning muscles but what this pose has that can’t be replicated in other sports I’m not sure.

                        Another thing I thought, looking any scoliotic person from the back http://www.ajthompson.com.au/images/scoliosis.jpg, his/her muscles on the convex side stand out due to spine compressing them, if this yoga pose doesn’t work this person will end up having these muscles standing out even more, as they’ll definitely develop more as this is a challenging pose to be kept for 45 or 90 seconds for months or years, at my age I can’t be bothered about looks but a teenager might also be interested in developing the concave side in order to have his/her back stand out a bit less. Just a thought.
                        Not to mention that debunking article where it says the plank should have been done on the concave side, where the muscles are actually shortened and weakened.. http://scoliosistreatmentalternative...lance-copy.jpg

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Bravo! Excellent points, Alistair.
                          Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                          No island of sanity.

                          Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                          Answer: Medicine


                          "We are all African."

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Alistair View Post
                            Some of the abovementioned definitions contradict themselves I think, and it seems I’m not the only one who has heard different opinions about his “compensatory” curve http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...nsatory-Curves

                            Re-reading the bit about the older woman who got 60% reduction from 108 degrees it just makes it all the more confusing about who might benefit from this pose, adolescents with idiopathic scoliosis, adults with degenerative, or adults with idiopathic too… When the doctor tells her "maybe I'm kidding myself, but you actually seem straighter", I mean, come on we would all feel it if we had had a correction of 60% certainly no need for someone else to point it out? Bizarre.

                            I was just wondering, since they make such a point about asymmetric exercise in order to get correction (BTW I remember when I was a young teenager and was diagnosed with scoliosis they prevented me to play tennis, I loved it so much but there was no arguing about it “asymmetric sports are bad for you” that was the thinking in those years, and to be frank nowadays it’s not much clearer, so many high profile professionals for instance still can’t agree whether swimming is good or bad for us..) why hasn’t anyone before thought of this? I mean, in other sports, for example in the Lou Ferrigno era when gym was at its peak surely someone will have tried asymmetry to strengthen the muscles in scoliotic patients no? You all seem well documented have you ever heard in the past making asymmetry their key point to straighten the spine? Results? Yoga is most definitely useful for stretching and toning muscles but what this pose has that can’t be replicated in other sports I’m not sure.
                            I think you may find some answers here:

                            Originally posted by skevimc View Post
                            I think it is possible for the muscles to make the curve worse. The problem is that with the complexity of how the muscles act on the spine, it is very difficult to say what movements would potentially increase the curve. This is why I think that symmetrical strengthening is an important component. But ultimately nobody knows. So remember that when someone says to you that strengthening is bad or stretching is bad or anything like that. Nobody knows for sure.

                            As far as the curve remaining even if your daughter is asleep. This is a pretty good point. But if excess muscle tone is the primary cause of the curve, the static tissues would still adapt. The discs would begin to wedge, the ligaments would begin to stretch. This is just one possible explanation.

                            I think you've made a good point that many physiotherapy methods focus a lot on the muscle component and not as much on the static tissue components.
                            Kevin is the only one here with enough knowledge in order to say what the in diapers science of our age may say or not about the scoliosis.

                            Rereading this old thread, I'm happy to see how this side plank study would be showing (assuming x-rays are real and rights) how much wrong I was thinking that only static tissues as ligaments, joints, bones or fascias (semi-static) could be the only culprits of doing the spine unable to resist the gravity force.
                            And it was very much surprising for me that paraspinal muscles could be the specific ones, but reading this 'Baxter mentioned Side Plank pose as one of the strengthening poses that he recommended for strengthening the muscles at the front, back, and sides of your body. Shari says the pose strengthens the serratus anterior, the obliques, the latisimus, quadratus the lumborum, the gluteus muscles, the fasciae latae, hamstrings, scapula stabilizers, teres minor and major, and then all the paraspinal muscle stabilizers'
                            When knowledge is insufficient the solution may be impossible to find through logical constructions.. trial and error is the path.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by flerc View Post
                              the spine unable to resist the gravity force.
                              This idea that anterior overgrowth of bone is due to soft tissue incompetence doesn't seem as plausible to me as the idea of some growth abnormality in either the discs, vertebra, or both in AIS.

                              If incompetent soft tissue was the cause then why do AIS curves tend to get bigger when the bones are growing incorrectly instead of correctly? Why would soft tissue suddenly become incompetent in the adolescent years even in athletes? The fact that athletes still see their curves worsen in the growth spurt points to a genetically directed vertebra growth anomaly in my opinion.

                              Even if it is a bone/disc growth abnormality, PT hypothetically might be able to redirect growth but there is very little evidence so far for that. It is hard to overcome bone growth with PT it seems.
                              Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                              No island of sanity.

                              Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                              Answer: Medicine


                              "We are all African."

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                i really hope the info on "side planks" for scoli does not hit
                                a major newspaper...
                                because then i will wait for someone (who does not have scoliosis)
                                to ask me what is the big deal about scoli, and why would anyone have surgery, when they can just lay on their side for some exercise
                                and poof....presto change-o....smaller curves...just that easy.

                                there are some who do not take scoliosis problems seriously
                                now, as it is...
                                just let them get word of "side planks" for tx, and i can not
                                even imagine how lite weight a problem scoli will seem to some.

                                it just sounds so darn over simplified...

                                jess....& Sparky

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