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  • #16
    Originally posted by Alistair View Post
    If you want to laugh I already wrote to Dr. Fishman, didn't ask for the article of course (although I already made this clear too on this forum in a different thread, that artcile should definitely be made available for free, we are already making huge free publicity to Yoga within this forum), I merely asked for a link or a snapshot of the pose for double curve patients as it's a bit confusing, he came back to me saying that I could have a telephone consultation with him for $150 for 15 minutes. Money drives this world..
    Ask for the article from him. There are pictures of all 7 variations.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

    Comment


    • #17
      interview cancelled w/out notice

      Pooka1,

      I had a meeting scheduled to discuss Fishman's article today so I reviewed it to make sure I could respond promptly and only found the following quote referencing treating a particular portion of the spine: "For 3 to 22 months, we evaluated the effectiveness of regular home practice of a single yoga pose designed to strengthen the convex side of primary thoracolumbar curves." In a previous email conversation, he commented on treating T, TL, and L curves.

      "Using paired sample t-tests, the mean change in primary and secondary Cobb angles were compared for all patients." Since he cancelled the meeting at the last minute I can't comment on whether the "secondary" curves documented were primary/ major or compensatory. Though page 19, heading ALL PATIENTS, paragraph 2, gives a hint when it states that the Cobb angle decreased on average from 37.2 to 25.3 degrees (32%)and the secondary curve on average decreased from 38.3 to 29.7 degrees (26%)--it is possible that both types were included.

      The band used for double major curves looks like the mesh straps frequently seen in an OT/ PT clinic. I have also seen them use therabands in cases such as this. Anyone can buy either item, though I prefer the mesh straps because it has a loop built-in and is not flexible.

      My daughter wants to give it a try for an x-ray period so she timed herself last night and for her first effort was only able to hold the pose 20 sec. lol, I don't think this will add much time to her workout!

      We'll let you know the results.

      A Mom

      Comment


      • #18
        nonresponsive

        Without some basic detail, this publication appears to be little more than an interesting side note. I had asked basic questions about the idiopathic cases and a few generic questions; none of which were answered. Instead, I received the following reply from the corresponding author.

        "Thank you for your persistent interest in out paper.

        Unfortunately this is a low-budget study, and we have no one to answer this detailed info at this time.

        We are working on another study which will include these patients and others. I will let you know when we are ready to bring it out."

        I am not sure how useful the next publication will be without differentiation between idiopathic and degenerative scoliosis; noting male/ female participation; discussion of the r/o process for additional issues in the high number of left primary curves (more than half of the participants); notation of curve placement (T, TL, L) response to treatment; noting whether major/ primary curves were treated differently than compensatory curves (were the results of compensatory cases reported); notation of the particular pose the individual utilized (7 options); whose measurement was utilized in the study (radiologist & orthopedic surgeons or authors); notation regarding trigger to change from asymmetrical to symmetrical side plank pose; how the participants tracked their self-reported data....

        Providing data that substantiates change/ no change in the natural history of scoliosis is useful.

        This is publication is disappointing.

        A Mom

        Comment


        • #19
          Ah, I doubt you will see that level of detail in any subsequent paper. These guys are not orthopedic surgeons and do not specialize in scoliosis and it shows in the way the article was written and in their comments online.

          I am not holding my breath about any improvements in subsequent papers.
          Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

          No island of sanity.

          Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
          Answer: Medicine


          "We are all African."

          Comment


          • #20
            my "professional" opinion...at least i think it is as professional
            as that publication....
            bunch of hooey

            jess

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by AMom View Post
              "Thank you for your persistent interest in out paper.

              Unfortunately this is a low-budget study, and we have no one to answer this detailed info at this time.

              We are working on another study which will include these patients and others. I will let you know when we are ready to bring it out."
              Wow, persistent interest huh? What a poor poor answer. Yep, disappointing indeed. What pisses me off the most is that it's all there black & white and will remain there, people for years to come typing "Yoga+Scoliosis" on Google will find that article on top because it's been of course mentioned in about every single Yoga website all around the world, the guys who did this study (who coincidentally seem to integrate Yoga in their private practices) got what they wanted already, I doubt they'll dig much deeper in this next "study". Giving false hopes is what I hate the most, it's all very appalling, if we can do anything to discredit these kind of publicity stunts we should do it.

              Comment


              • #22
                The bottom line is there is no evidence anyone avoided surgery by doing the side plank.

                In private email with another person, they claimed some people corrected completely and then had to start doing the side plank on the other side to avoid over-correction. My first comment was why aren't any of those cases in the article? My second comment is why the direction at that point wasn't to ease off on the one direction instead of adding the other side. My third comment is maybe over-correction is possible in mild degenerative cases but I don't believe it ever happened in an AIS case with anterior overgrowth. These guys don't seem to appreciate the fundamental differences because they are not orthopedic surgeons.
                Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                No island of sanity.

                Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                Answer: Medicine


                "We are all African."

                Comment


                • #23
                  This is a newer article (well from today actually) where it's hinted new studies have been held with 15hrs a week exercises http://www.huffingtonpost.com/loren-...b_6366964.html

                  Unfortunately I'm just not familiar enough with much of what these people claim to categorically say it's all gibberish, they wrote books about Yoga for arthritis, Yoga for osteophorosis.. it does seem they genuinely believe Yoga is a panacea for everything..

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Alistair,

                    The woman he speaks of in this publication is part of the "Serial Case Reporting..." study. Via email, he stated her daughter helped her do the yoga and she had a substantial reduction in her curve; when she stopped the yoga, she lost the curve reduction within 5 months (per x-ray). --Not discussed, but of importance is the fact the retrospective study talks about the 25 patients, but it actually reports on 19 patients (12 degenerative scoliosis + 7 idiopathic scoliosis = reporting 19 compliant patients; those who completed the pose 4-7x per week).

                    Page 1, no subheading, 1 & 2nd paragraphs starts by speaking of adolescent girls, then goes on to talk about girls and women; combining the two groups. The manner in which his blog begins is likely to make many readers believe "Doing Simple Yoga Pose Short-Term Reduces Adolescent Scoliosis Curves By Almost Half," has been studied during adolescence and resulted in answering many of the potential questions. Based on Fishman's emails, he is interested in studying this treatment in adolescents, but so far has only collected antidotal information from families. His 2014 study does not provide enough specific information to comment any further than noting reducing a 6 degree curve to 3 degrees isn't impressive as the "change noted" is less than the accepted +/- 5 degree error/ change rate.

                    Page 1, Bracing, 1st paragraph, based on the description may be discussing the flexible brace created in Canada, but since he didn't mention the name of "the most popular bracing method" he is discussing, I am unable to say this is a fact.

                    Page 2, Immediate Encouraging Results, 3rd paragraph, references, "One method found improvement with 15 hours a week of exercises. . .", however it did not site the study by name. The minimal description matches that of the CLEAR method, but as far as I know, their write-up still hasn't been accepted for publication in any journal so he must be talking about something else.

                    I find this blog concerning.

                    A Mom

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      As never before I want now to have scoliosis.. the same curve of my daughter. Some years ago I wrote to India and they contacted me with a Iyengar Yoga teacher in USA who said me (now I may say it) she reduced her big curve 20º in adulthood. Since then she always recommend me a IY teacher in my country she personally knows very well, but my daughter doesn't like Yoga, she only loves to dance. I hope this teacher in my country accepts to only teach to do this asana to my daughter.. surely she would not have any problem in do it some minutes every day, but anyway I'm afraid.. her physiatrist surely would not agree.. what if her type of curve is not the most indicated for this excercise?.. scoliosis always exceeds me.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        While the study is obviously flawed, I think, if I had a kid, I'd try to convince them to do this one simple exercise every day. It probably doesn't hurt, and it might actually help. The reasons I think most of the other alternative programs are bad are 1) there's no proof that they work, 2) the people who report on these programs make a lot of money from them, and 3) they involve a large investment of time and money. Side planks are free and involve only seconds a day.
                        Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
                        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
                        Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by LindaRacine View Post
                          While the study is obviously flawed, I think, if I had a kid, I'd try to convince them to do this one simple exercise every day. It probably doesn't hurt, and it might actually help. The reasons I think most of the other alternative programs are bad are 1) there's no proof that they work, 2) the people who report on these programs make a lot of money from them, and 3) they involve a large investment of time and money. Side planks are free and involve only seconds a day.
                          Do you believe any significant AIS curve was over-corrected to the point of having to do the plank on the other side from a few minutes of PT a day? The degenerative cases are different for known reasons... they aren't fighting bone shape in that case.

                          These guys sound high at times.

                          By the way, in that second blurb, they say the curvature comes first and then the rotation. That might be true of degenerative but it isn't true of AIS. This reveals their roots in rehabilitative and pain medicine with adults and exposes their near total lack of experience with kids with AIS. They are not orthopedic surgeons and it shows.
                          Last edited by Pooka1; 01-06-2015, 05:53 AM.
                          Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                          No island of sanity.

                          Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                          Answer: Medicine


                          "We are all African."

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by AMom View Post

                            The woman he speaks of in this publication is part of the "Serial Case Reporting..." study. Via email, he stated her daughter helped her do the yoga and she had a substantial reduction in her curve; when she stopped the yoga, she lost the curve reduction within 5 months (per x-ray). --Not discussed, but of importance is the fact the retrospective study talks about the 25 patients, but it actually reports on 19 patients (12 degenerative scoliosis + 7 idiopathic scoliosis = reporting 19 compliant patients; those who completed the pose 4-7x per week).
                            That adult woman is a IS or degenerative scoliosis case? If this study was only done in AIS or degenerative adults, I should not have much hope it can work for my daughter, she is an (although very young) adult and of course there are important differences between IS or degenerative adults and AIS cases .
                            Last edited by flerc; 01-06-2015, 06:57 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              This Pilates teacher says it was a degeneratice case: 'Idiopathic scoliosis usually has at least two curves and the research shows that seven patients had secondary curves. Meaning that seven patients with “S” curves had idiopathic scoliosis and the last 12 compliant patients with a single “C” curve had degenerative scoliosis... Of the seven people that had idiopathic scoliosis, their curvatures ranged from 6 to 43 degrees in their initial X-ray. '
                              It's true what she is saying?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Yeah, I'm going to put on my bull shirt to do my yoga/meditation today. If that side plank changed a curve for the better to any significant extent (permanently), my curve shouldn't have increased as much as it did in the last four years. I practice Kripalu yoga every day and have for years, and while obtaining a really great stretch, the side plank hasn't changed my lumbar curve one bit. Interesting that they didn't have any kind of control group, and also interesting that this guy wants money for everything. In my opinion, this is one of those schemes where someone will sell you his book of money-making secrets for $49.95, and then his book says, "all you have to do is write a book and get someone to buy it."

                                I think it's a load of carp as far as changing a curve, but as a huge proponent/practitioner of yoga and the healing powers of meditation, what can it hurt? (unless you fall out of the pose onto your face).

                                Namaste.

                                Fifa

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