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Thread: Younger Patient Fears Future Pain?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkyFish View Post
    I'm listening. *smile* And trying to understand. I've been x-rayed and measured so many times by chiropractors, orthopedic experts, scoliosis specialists, and sports medicine doctors. From my point of view, the chiropractors were the only ones who cared enough to help - though this discussion leads me to believe that I should hit a specialist or two again in order to get a more comprehensive view of what this'll all mean as an adult.


    But... Lyme? Isn't that a whole nother problem?
    She mistyped that. Cross conversations. Jess is an expert on Lyme.

    She meant an experienced orthopedic surgeon specializing in spine/scoliosis.

    Please don't confuse wanting to help you with stealing your money. The chiro stole your money if you had a small curve that wasn't painful. You needed no treatment. It would be unethical for a surgeon to treat you absent progression or pain or other symptoms simply because you had a small curve. Most people with small curves have no more back problems than people who don't have a curve.

    I hope you are seeing why you should never go to a chiro for scoliosis.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrnyc View Post
    please please please...
    do yourself a favor and go to a real doctor who specializes
    in scoliosis...and can take an Xray and measure your curves
    accurately...
    doctors used to tell us 50 degrees was surgery level...
    but we now know there are people in alot of pain with smaller
    curves and some with larger curves who are lucky not to have
    pain...
    of course, pain is not the deciding factor on surgery...
    as a matter of fact,.it is the progression of the curves that worries
    surgeons...more so than the pain...the progression, and how much
    the curves debilitate that person...or do not

    sorry...but the facts are the facts...

    jess...and Sparky
    Jess: An addition that I would like to make is that for persons with "Adult Onset Degenerative Scoliosis", the degree of the curve really is not relevant, it is the pain caused by collapsing discs, stenotic vertebrae, etc. My curve for example did not change in a year, but my pain increased phenomenally and my coronal balance went from maybe 4" to 11 something". So, I listed to the right side, had a huge kyphosis, a lot of pain and curves of 24 degrees thoracic and 36 degrees lumbar.

    One spinal surgeon seeing the change and degree of pain said, something like, "I cannot believe that someone in your shape wouldn't want surgery".

    Susan
    Dxed 8/2011: Degenerative Adult-Onset Scoliosis age 65
    XRAY 1/2012: 25* T levoscoliosis/ 36* L dexroscoliosis w/ 4.1 cm coronal & 3.5 cm sagittal balance
    XRAY: 12/2012: Scoliosis curve same, Coronal Balance increased to 11.2 cm. T kyphosis 90 degrees
    Severe disc degeneration thoracic & lumbar, stenosis esp L4
    Surgery: T3 to S1 Fusion w/ ALIF L4-S1/XLIF L2-4, PSF T4-S1 in 2 surgeries,
    19 & 22 March 2013, Dr. Serena Hu @ UCSF
    Postop incisional hernia @ ALIF incision, repaired 3/2014

  3. #18
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    i do not know that onset has that much to do with it...
    i had curves not diagnosed til i was 31...but the curves
    were already there...
    in the last 4 years, according to Dr Lonner, my curves
    have increased little, but my pain has gotten so much worse
    that i can barely walk...
    he said my ribs look like they are collapsing more onto my
    hips on the right side..
    and on the X ray, which looks almost identical to 4 years ago,
    when compared side by side, it continues to appear the same...
    as if there is nothing there, literally, on right side....around
    my waist...everything is shifting to the left...
    there is no way to know exactly WHY my pain is so much
    worse...perhaps because i did not have bursitis in my hips
    4 years ago...? my hips did not hurt at all back then....
    maybe that is part of it...
    perhaps because my listhesis seems to be getting worse...

    what i would like to tell "younger patient" is that i did fine for YEARS
    with scoliosis...until i herniated a disc in my lumbar spine....after
    that, it was all downhill....
    but my younger years, scoliosis did not cause me much pain at all,
    and did not prevent me from doing anything...



    20140626_124857_resized.jpg
    Last edited by jrnyc; 07-02-2014 at 07:12 PM.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkyFish View Post
    I do understand your concern and I've looked over the articles. I apologize for not agreeing right away but I'm been taught since childhood that Natural medicine is misunderstood and hated by most "unlightened" members of the medical community - so bare with me as I try to give everyone a fair hearing. I am listening. My mother has also agreed that my next check-up should come from a back specialist - preferably one who goes to a chiropractor himself and understands the pros and cons of that discipline.

    That being said, this is the model they've showed me: http://www.patientmedia.com/reports/sdmodel.htm It's kinda scary when you're 24 and fit.
    The product is being sold on a chiropractic website, but if I Google "lumbr degeneration" I find a bunch of orthopedic websites - which leads me to thing that the condition is real - and I probably should get a back specialist's opinion on my x-rays to tell if the chiropractor is completely lying or is on the ball.

    Edit: And I've got a call out and they're making .jpgs of the x-rays.
    Hi SkyFish...

    There is no evidence to show that chiropractic treatment will have any affect on degeneration, the condition of the spine shown in the models to which you posted the link. Unfortunately, the degeneration shown in the model happens to everyone as they age. With few exceptions, I can pretty much tell someone's approximate age simply by looking at xrays of their spine.

    The good news for you, I think, is that while I doubt that seeing a chiropractor will help your scoliosis, chances are, it also won't hurt (except your wallet). Since you're already an adult, your curve(s) are unlikely to increase quickly. And, even if they do, you're probably not hurting yourself by not seeking treatment from a qualified scoliosis specialist. If you start experiencing significant pain and/or start having arm or leg pain or weakness, that would be a good time to be seen.

    Regards,
    Linda
    Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Dilbert
    I'm sarcastic... what's your super power? --Unknown
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
    Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkyFish View Post
    I do understand your concern and I've looked over the articles. I apologize for not agreeing right away but I'm been taught since childhood that Natural medicine is misunderstood and hated by most "unlightened" members of the medical community - so bare with me as I try to give everyone a fair hearing. I am listening. My mother has also agreed that my next check-up should come from a back specialist - preferably one who goes to a chiropractor himself and understands the pros and cons of that discipline.

    That being said, this is the model they've showed me: http://www.patientmedia.com/reports/sdmodel.htm It's kinda scary when you're 24 and fit.
    The product is being sold on a chiropractic website, but if I Google "lumbr degeneration" I find a bunch of orthopedic websites - which leads me to thing that the condition is real - and I probably should get a back specialist's opinion on my x-rays to tell if the chiropractor is completely lying or is on the ball.

    Edit: And I've got a call out and they're making .jpgs of the x-rays.
    By the way, if you read the copy on the link you mentioned above, you'll see how the models are meant to be used to manipulate and scare patients.
    Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Dilbert
    I'm sarcastic... what's your super power? --Unknown
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
    Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

  6. #21
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    I saw a chiropractor for thoracic severe pain on the recommendation of my pain management doctor. He did some gentle manipulation, as I told him that he could not perform any fast twisting jerks.

    I must have has a vertebrae that was slightly unbalanced as the pain was relieved or about 3 days, then returned. I saw him about 4-5 times and I always felt better for a few days only.

    I do not understand the Science behind chiropractic care and I could not find good double blind placebo controlled trials with he treatments that they use.

    I had a friend with back pain who had neck vertebral damage after a chiropractic manipulation.

    Susan
    Dxed 8/2011: Degenerative Adult-Onset Scoliosis age 65
    XRAY 1/2012: 25* T levoscoliosis/ 36* L dexroscoliosis w/ 4.1 cm coronal & 3.5 cm sagittal balance
    XRAY: 12/2012: Scoliosis curve same, Coronal Balance increased to 11.2 cm. T kyphosis 90 degrees
    Severe disc degeneration thoracic & lumbar, stenosis esp L4
    Surgery: T3 to S1 Fusion w/ ALIF L4-S1/XLIF L2-4, PSF T4-S1 in 2 surgeries,
    19 & 22 March 2013, Dr. Serena Hu @ UCSF
    Postop incisional hernia @ ALIF incision, repaired 3/2014

  7. #22
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    Thanks Jess and Sparky and Susan for telling what you've experienced. Personal antidotes make so much sense even we all end up being different.

    Unfortunately, the degeneration shown in the model happens to everyone as they age.
    Oh. That's good to know.

    Please don't confuse wanting to help you with stealing your money. The chiro stole your money if you had a small curve that wasn't painful. You needed no treatment. It would be unethical for a surgeon to treat you absent progression or pain or other symptoms simply because you had a small curve. Most people with small curves have no more back problems than people who don't have a curve.
    I have seen good chiros - and they really do fix *some* things. But I totally follow.
    By the way, if you read the copy on the link you mentioned above, you'll see how the models are meant to be used to manipulate and scare patients.
    Excellent point. Hmmmmmmm...

    But the proof is in the pudding. Here are my x-rays! I know you're not doctors, but any thoughts? Principle things I'm wondering are whether my vertebrates are already degenerating and how bad all this actually is. I guess one curve has hit 21. xray2a.jpgxray1a.jpg

    There was a note from the x-ray tech:
    "Findings: There is a 21 degree lower thoracic and lumbar rotscoliotic curve convex left noted according to the method of Cobb. In addition, there is a 13 degree mid-to-lower thoracic rotoscholiotic curve convex right identified according to the method of Cobb. No intrinsic vertebral abnormality is noted. There is also an upper thoracic 11 degree rotoscoliotic curve convex left noted."
    Last edited by SkyFish; 07-03-2014 at 10:19 PM.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkyFish View Post
    I have seen good chiros - and they really do fix *some* things. But I totally follow.
    Chiro has been shown to help with some lower back pain but is no more effective than other PT. They should never be working on children with scoliosis because they have no relevant training.

    There is no evidence chiro stops scoliosis progression or reduces curves. If they claim to do so then they are ignorant or lying. There is no third option.

    You appear to have very small curves. Most small curves like that never progress. Unless you were having pain, there was little reason to even see a surgeon past the initial diagnosis and maybe a follow up. There is never any reason to see a chiro for scoliosis other than for lower back pain that might even be better addressed using something other than chiro.

    Chiro sits on a throne of imaginary claims. It is not a science.

    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...-chiropractic/

    And finally, about your mother being open to other types of medicine besides mainstream medicine... if you open you mind too much your brain will fall out. :-)

    Q. What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    A: Medicine.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkyFish View Post
    Thanks Jess and Sparky and Susan for telling what you've experienced. Personal antidotes make so much sense even we all end up being different.


    Oh. That's good to know.


    I have seen good chiros - and they really do fix *some* things. But I totally follow.

    Excellent point. Hmmmmmmm...

    But the proof is in the pudding. Here are my x-rays! I know you're not doctors, but any thoughts? Principle things I'm wondering are whether my vertebrates are already degenerating and how bad all this actually is. I guess one curve has hit 21. xray2a.jpgxray1a.jpg

    There was a note from the x-ray tech:
    "Findings: There is a 21 degree lower thoracic and lumbar rotscoliotic curve convex left noted according to the method of Cobb. In addition, there is a 13 degree mid-to-lower thoracic rotoscholiotic curve convex right identified according to the method of Cobb. No intrinsic vertebral abnormality is noted. There is also an upper thoracic 11 degree rotoscoliotic curve convex left noted."
    Your curves are pretty small, so hopefully, they'll never cause problems. The best thing you can do for yourself is to stay fit, and keep your core strong.

    BTW, the radiographic report is pretty typical.
    Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Dilbert
    I'm sarcastic... what's your super power? --Unknown
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
    Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

  10. #25
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    wow....nice strong spine...
    i hope you follow Linda's advice...
    personally, if i were you, i wouldn't see anyone except
    the people at the gym...
    cardio and weight training should help you stay
    strong and fit...
    maybe you should look at some of the scoli X rays on
    here to know what a real scoliotic spine looks like...
    should stop any worries you have...
    (Linda has a thread of before and after surgery X rays)

    jess...and Sparky

  11. #26
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    And finally, about your mother being open to other types of medicine besides mainstream medicine... if you open you mind too much your brain will fall out. :-)
    This is true. Mom always discouraged allergy meds too, but they've turned out to be a godsend - and so far I get NO side effects.

    BTW, the radiographic report is pretty typical.
    Thanks. It sounded pretty bad when I opened it and saw "21", so that's great to hear.

    personally, if i were you, i wouldn't see anyone except
    the people at the gym...
    cardio and weight training should help you stay
    strong and fit...
    maybe you should look at some of the scoli X rays on
    here to know what a real scoliotic spine looks like...
    should stop any worries you have...
    I'll look into it. I'm going to find a "secular" orthopedic doc just to confirm all this and cause it's been a while since anybody but chiros were involved. I've poked through some of the other x-rays here and I totally follow... Assuming the pain stays away, I'm very lucky.

  12. #27
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    Sky, you have a nice spine!

    Exercise, Calcium, and Vitamin D, and maybe the occasional tree or closet hang should do it. He he

    I wouldn’t worry much at all....just like a small icon on your desktop, be aware of it, click on it every few years, maybe get a x-ray.

    Save your money....(smiley face)

    Ed
    49 yr old male, now 55, the new 39...
    Pre surgery curves C12,T70,L70
    A/P T2-Pelvis 01/29/08, 01/31/08 7" pelvic anchors BMP
    Dr Brett Menmuir St Marys Hospital Reno,Nevada

    Bending and twisting pics after full fusion
    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...on.&highlight=

    My x-rays
    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...2&d=1228779214

    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...3&d=1228779258

  13. #28
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    Will do! Thanks so much y'all. I'm super encouraged!

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