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Thread: Is medical research a democracy?

  1. #1
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    Is medical research a democracy?

    There have been many noises lately about whether there should be some credentials in order to post original science claims in a research section.

    Here are some relevant questions in my opinion...

    1. What are the legitimate purposes of the research section?
    2. What are some illegitimate purposes?
    3. Can lay people understand the research literature?
    4. Does it matter if nonsense is posted in the research section?
    5. Is emotion a legitimate reason to criticize researchers?


    Maybe anyone who is interested in what is going on in the research section can respond. Here are my answers...

    1. What are the legitimate purposes of the research section?

    In my opinion, the main legitimate purpose is to post relevant research in a form that is written for a lay audience.

    2. What are some illegitimate purposes?

    Some illegitimate purposes include:
    - alternative treatment purveyors trolling for innocent victims
    - lay people with obviously no training just expounding randomly

    3. Can lay people understand the research literature?

    Yes if they have relevant training. No if they don't. Nobody is born knowing this stuff and you can't learn it from one or several five minute google searches. It is highly unlikely that someone with no relevant training is going to contribute something valuable. Is it possible? Yes. Is it likely? No. Is it obvious when someone is expounding ignorantly? Yes (to those with science training). Will it be obvious to everyone? No, not to those with no science training.

    4. Does it matter if nonsense is posted in the research section?

    I think it does because when you have bunnies speaking nonsense to bunnies, there is always the danger that some innocent child will suffer.

    5. Is emotion a legitimate reason to criticize researchers?

    No. Do we see that often in this section? Yes by lay people.
    Last edited by Pooka1; 02-28-2014 at 01:11 PM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

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  2. #2
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    Revised list:

    1. Does it help to have people with no science training (i.e., alchemists) posting on chemistry fora?

    2. Does it help to have people with no science training (i.e., creationists) posting on biology fora?

    3. Does it help to have people with no history training (i.e., Holocaust deniers) posting on history fora?

    4. Does it help to have people with no science or medical training (i.e., lay parents and patients) posting IN THE RESEARCH SECTION holding forth on medical/scientific matters?

    5. Is emotion a legitimate reason to criticize researchers?
    Last edited by Pooka1; 02-28-2014 at 01:12 PM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Does it help to have people with no science training (i.e., alchemists) posting on chemistry fora?

    Does it help to have people with no science training (i.e., creationists) posting on biology fora?

    Does it help to have people with no history training (i.e., Holocaust deniers) posting on history fora?

    Does it help to have people with no science or medical training (i.e., lay parents and patients) posting on medical issue fora for lay people?
    To the last question, I will say yes, if they have a medically related experience to share. They should be able to say this or that happened to me, OR my family history is this or that. Then they can state if it fits into the "known" medical science and ask a professional why or why not. It's okay to post ideas, too. It's NOT okay to try to back them up with published journals so that they can pick and choose.

    I can imagine someone saying this or that journal said.... Does this mean?....
    That's how people learn. But, this back and forth hypothesizing (not theorizing) can be VERY misleading to people. Then there becomes a "following of believers" because a person sounds convincing, when in actuality they are talking smooth, sugar-coated rubbish.

    That's exactly how Hitler came into power. And for those that don't know, the good old USA had concentration camps during WWII, while at the same time condemning Germany for having them. Albeit, Germans were starving, doing horrific medical experimentations, and executing those in their camps. The USA had "relocation camps" for ALL Japanese Americans, whether they were born here or not. WOW! You don't read that in High School History books!
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    To the last question, I will say yes, if they have a medically related experience to share. They should be able to say this or that happened to me, OR my family history is this or that. Then they can state if it fits into the "known" medical science and ask a professional why or why not. It's okay to post ideas, too. It's NOT okay to try to back them up with published journals so that they can pick and choose.
    Oh hey I should have worded that better. The testimonials are so valuable. I mean to limit it to the research section and comments about the scientific literature. I'll fix that. And I also forgot to include my fifth question.

    I can imagine someone saying this or that journal said.... Does this mean?....
    That's how people learn. But, this back and forth hypothesizing (not theorizing) can be VERY misleading to people. Then there becomes a "following of believers" because a person sounds convincing, when in actuality they are talking smooth, sugar-coated rubbish.

    That's exactly how Hitler came into power. And for those that don't know, the good old USA had concentration camps during WWII, while at the same time condemning Germany for having them. Albeit, Germans were starving, doing horrific medical experimentations, and executing those in their camps. The USA had "relocation camps" for ALL Japanese Americans, whether they were born here or not. WOW! You don't read that in High School History books!
    Great points.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  5. #5
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    Question 5. Emotion isn't a reason to criticize anyone. Spouses do it to each other. Parents and children do it. "Friends" do it. Strangers do it. Remember the music videos by Dr. Weiss? That provoked quite an emotional response. So, I guess that wouldn't be a reason to criticize his work, either.

    BTW, I looked at his webpage recently and he seems to be working mostly as a PM&R doctor (Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation) with kids who've had fusion, along with his bracing, of course. PM&R is a legitimate field of medicine. He would be helping those kids get back on their feet by managing limitations from their surgeries and helping medically with pain control.

    My PM&R doctor helps with pain management and does EMG Botox, trigger point therapy and other things with other people. They try to use non-surgical approaches (not non-medical) to help the patient avoid surgery, but will refer to a surgeon when needed.
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  6. #6
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    As far as I can tell, Weiss may have had surgical training but didn't operate as surgeon much (pardon that pun). He tried to make Schroth work for many years and then moved on.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  7. #7
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    Well, his credentials look impressive. He moved on in a good direction. I'm sure some people don't have the stomach to do that kind of surgery. It's awfully gruesome to watch, let alone do! I'm not saying that's the case with Dr. Weiss. He did get board certified in that area. I don't blame him for wanting to take a milder approach. However, with his knowledge of that surgery, having done at least some himself, he is probably in the best position to help with rehabilitating these kids after surgery. I think his heart is in the right place. He just had to find his niche in the field and apparently doing the actual operations wasn't it. His videos were still creepy. He has a nice voice, but could have made better music videos to get his point across. If I lived in Germany, I would not let that stop me from taking my kid to see him, though. He seems quite knowledgeable on the subject from every point of view. He hasn't totally given up on Schroth, either. HE doesn't run a clinic but does post several links to Schroth clinics around the world and actually rates them for how good they are.

    Have you looked at his website recently? I was impressed. Although, there is no mention of the more modern surgical techniques. So I don't know if he's keeping up on that part of it. His publications are quite extensive, though.
    Be happy!
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  8. #8
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    Not to say it's relevant, but I know of one spine surgeon who is a disaster. A very large number of his patients end up needing revision and/or end up with surgical site infections. While, unfortunately, he's still operating, he's moving toward doing spine injections. I would assume that's because they're incredibly profitable.
    Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Dilbert
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    Quote Originally Posted by LindaRacine View Post
    Not to say it's relevant, but I know of one spine surgeon who is a disaster. A very large number of his patients end up needing revision and/or end up with surgical site infections. While, unfortunately, he's still operating, he's moving toward doing spine injections. I would assume that's because they're incredibly profitable.
    This doctor you are referring to needs to QUIT surgery altogether! I'd be afraid to even have an epidural by a physician that doesn't understand pre, intra and post-operative sterile techniques. It's so important!

    Having worked in different capacities in the healthcare field, I know it's illegal for you to post WHO this surgeon is. I wish you could. I don't see the need for a hush hush attitude toward a doctor's reputation. People go in to see these guys/gals with full trust, only to be seriously injured or even killed. I know an orthopedic doctor in my area that "was" having very high rates of postoperative infections. When a colleague of mine and I were discussing "him" she could not mention his name even to me as a fellow professional. I knew exactly who she was talking about. I think it is just WRONG to have to remain hush mouthed. People's lives are on the line. A person's life is FAR more valuable than a doctor's reputation! There was a Down's man in our facility trying to recover from a complete hip replacement that was infected VERY BADLY. Poor guy had to have the entire incision left open down to the bone so it could heal from the inside out! It was one of the most horrific things I've ever laid eyes on.

    But, apparently the physician has a good reputation now as people come from long distances for their surgeries in a small town hospital. So whatever mistake "he" was making must have been completely corrected. "His" practice alone has helped make our hospital a boon for business and much growth. We now have several very good physicians that make the trip weekly to come here. This "guy" is here full time.

    Well, I think question 5 has been thoroughly answered! LOL
    Be happy!
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  10. #10
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    All I can say is this is not one of the UCSF spine surgeons. He has been reported numerous times, and he has had quite a few law suits filed. Unfortunately, his license is clean, so he's some how getting himself out of his screw ups.
    Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Dilbert
    I'm sarcastic... what's your super power? --Unknown
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
    Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation
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    If you've signed up and are having trouble posting, please check your spam folder. An email was sent to the email address which you subscribed. You have to follow the instructions in that email. Done that and still having trouble posting? Contact Joe O'Brien at jpobrien@scoliosis.org.

  11. #11
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    He probably pays out of court settlements and if it's enough doesn't get reported to the medical board. I'm telling you, if someone did a major boo boo on me, there wouldn't be enough money in the world that would keep me from reporting them to the medical board!
    Be happy!
    We don't know what tomorrow brings,
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  12. #12
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    bump


    ,


    ,
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  13. #13
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    I don't know why patients haven't banded together and demanded data on the quality of surgeons.
    If I was headed into surgery (or sending my child in) I'd want to know that surgeons track record.

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