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Thread: "Driving people away" - who, why, and does it matter?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    Sorry, is very difficult for me to believe you don't think that Pooka1's work is not enough to don't wanting to participate here in non surgical sections.
    Who may believe people may be so insane to be interested in such kind of discussions?

  2. #62
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    This is the outcome of the Pooka1's work of course, and you Mariaf are not stupid, you know that.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    Who may believe people may be so insane to be interested in such kind of discussions?
    If someone told you your wife was cheating on you would you just believe them or would you want to see evidence? I assume you would demand to see evidence.

    Yet you seem to completely relax that demand for evidence when it comes to claims of PT and scoliosis progression. Why?
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    I agree. We need a "Folk Research" section for that stuff.
    I disagree. Not every well known "scientist" has in centuries past been well learned at the "Universities", yet have made astounding contributions to science even at the cost of their own lives. Many of these men were honestly faith based in many of their beliefs. They just couldn't ignore the facts they saw and found no contradiction in such facts. So ideas aren't necessarily "Folk Science" unless they are touted as "Truth" and have a scientific basis to be disproven. Folk Science include things like spontaneous generation, the Earth is flat and the center of the Universe. These things can be proven to be untrue. Honestly, the germ theory, that many don't like, hasn't be disproven. If it is, then it will be Folk Science to continue to believe it is truth. For now it is a "belief" for those who do and don't "believe" it. Right now it is the hypothesis of probably more than one person, layman or not. Heck, we don't know that some scientist out there isn't frustrated because he can't get funding to research this hypothesis. There are, in my "belief", so many different causes of scoliosis that it stands reasonable to me that "some" scoliosis "may" be caused by microorganisms, but not ALL idiopathic scoliosis. There might even be some known causes of "germ" related scoliosis. In that case it wouldn't be IS. So to say all IS is caused by a germ WOULD be Folk Science. Superstitions/Legends - Folk Science. Real Science - can be PROVEN without a shadow of a doubt, not all similar symptoms have the same cause. A-->B does NOT equal B-->A.

    So to discuss an idea isn't wrong. To promote it as FACT is wrong.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    If surgery was a choice then nobody would get it.
    Surgery is a choice. That's why it's elective. Understanding the odds of progressing/pain without surgery is exactly the same mental exercise as understanding the odds of progressing/pain without bracing.

    You try to make those odds clear to people so that they understand their choice. But to tell patients that surgery is *not* a choice is to gravely misrepresent.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    Did Pooka1 attack you as she did with hundreds of members here until they left the forum? I only will believe that if I you quote it.
    Flerc,
    I know this question wasn't directed to me, but how do you know that Pooka1 single handedly ran off hundreds of members from this forum? That's a HUGE claim and a lot of power for one member to have. I think if that were really true, she would have been banned a long time ago. This would fall into the Folk Science category if it were about science. Otherwise it's just slander unless you can prove it.
    Be happy!
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  7. #67
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    Surely she also don't understand what a choice means. It have not any sense to discuss with her, but is also impossible to talk about what we wants to talk.. a very much suspect forum really..

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    I disagree. Not every well known "scientist" has in centuries past been well learned at the "Universities", yet have made astounding contributions to science even at the cost of their own lives. Many of these men were honestly faith based in many of their beliefs. They just couldn't ignore the facts they saw and found no contradiction in such facts. So ideas aren't necessarily "Folk Science" unless they are touted as "Truth" and have a scientific basis to be disproven. Folk Science include things like spontaneous generation, the Earth is flat and the center of the Universe. These things can be proven to be untrue. Honestly, the germ theory, that many don't like, hasn't be disproven. If it is, then it will be Folk Science to continue to believe it is truth. For now it is a "belief" for those who do and don't "believe" it. Right now it is the hypothesis of probably more than one person, layman or not. Heck, we don't know that some scientist out there isn't frustrated because he can't get funding to research this hypothesis. There are, in my "belief", so many different causes of scoliosis that it stands reasonable to me that "some" scoliosis "may" be caused by microorganisms, but not ALL idiopathic scoliosis. There might even be some known causes of "germ" related scoliosis. In that case it wouldn't be IS. So to say all IS is caused by a germ WOULD be Folk Science. Superstitions/Legends - Folk Science. Real Science - can be PROVEN without a shadow of a doubt, not all similar symptoms have the same cause. A-->B does NOT equal B-->A.

    So to discuss an idea isn't wrong. To promote it as FACT is wrong.
    I will agree with this. But I think given all the other associations of micro-organisms and disease, I think the ID guys and epidemiologists may have already ruled that out for IS. I don't know. All I know is there are only about three major groups worldwide studying IS etiology and we know what they are studying. It doesn't include ID. But that cuts both ways... with only three groups studying it, maybe they don't have the manpower to look at ID. I guess I'd like to talk with some of these guys to see if it has been ruled out or not.

    Sometimes things can be elegantly put to bed. My favorite example is how a famous limnologist was able to put the Loch Ness Monster claims to bed once and for all by calculating that there is not enough forage for such an animal given reasonable assumptions about metabolic rates. I just love that. It's using first principles to rule out a claim. So, so elegant.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by hdugger View Post
    Surgery is a choice. That's why it's elective.
    Yes and insurance companies routinely paying out hundreds of thousands of dollars PER SURGERY for "elective" surgery. That rolls up into many millions per year. Yes makes sense.
    Last edited by Pooka1; 01-09-2014 at 01:12 PM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    Flerc,
    I know this question wasn't directed to me, but how do you know that Pooka1 single handedly ran off hundreds of members from this forum? That's a HUGE claim and a lot of power for one member to have. I think if that were really true, she would have been banned a long time ago. This would fall into the Folk Science category if it were about science. Otherwise it's just slander unless you can prove it.
    Yes, she should have to be banned a long time ago, is exactly what I'm saying since a long time ago!

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    Because surely any other member's attacks would seem to be very much friendly if they are compared with Pooka1's attacks.
    Like I said, you weren't here to see it so I understand you making this incorrect assumption, but the other member's attacks on me (once accusing me of recruiting patients to be experimented on!) make Sharon look timid.
    mariaf305@yahoo.com
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  12. #72
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    Or at least not allows here to does her unmoral pathetic work here of course. Instead of this she use to receive the moderator's help.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Yes and insurance companies routinely paying out hundreds of thousands of dollars for "elective" surgery. Yes makes sense.
    Whether it makes sense to you or not, both things are true. It is elective surgery *and* insurance companies pay a high cost for it.

    Likewise for hip replacement - also elective, also running into $100,000 cost to insurance companies.

    Elective does not equal experimental or deemed ineffective. It just means that it's the sort of surgery about which one is not facing a life or death decision. Open heart surgery - *not* elective in emergency cases. Fusion surgery - elective.

    Hence, open heart surgery is not a choice (unless it is a choice to die). Fusion surgery *is* a choice.

    That's all I'm saying. To fail to make that clear is to mislead.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by mariaf View Post
    Like I said, you weren't here to see it so I understand you making this incorrect assumption, but the other member's attacks on me (once accusing me of recruiting patients to be experimented on!) make Sharon look timid.
    Sorry I have not enough imagination to beleive it. If his work was realy so agresive, sure it had more level.. sure was not so pathetic.. this is what turns her work insoportable.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    Yes, she should have to be banned a long time ago, is exactly what I'm saying since a long time ago!
    I think I should only be banned when the numbers reach into the thousands. Saying hundreds is setting the bar too low and it may not motivate me.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

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